Mike Maddock: 0:00

And what happens is that when you run a big company, you're good at making small moves and you're not as responsive as you should be. And so these little, tiny companies are what keep the big CEOs up at night. They're afraid that they're missing something and that they're not going to be able to move as quickly as possible to get in front of it.

Tina Smith: 0:24

Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer podcast. I'm Tina.

Amanda Ballard: 0:28

And I'm Amanda. We're here to make marketing easier for natural products businesses, so you can reach more people and change more lives.

Tina Smith: 0:39

Mike Maddock welcome to the Natural Products Marketer podcast.

Mike Maddock: 0:44

Thank you, tina, thank you, amanda. It's a pleasure to be here.

Tina Smith: 0:47

We're really excited to talk to you today because we wanted to dive into some critical problems that the natural products retailers are facing these days, including going up against big box stores and online entities like Amazon, and we thought you might have a lot to say about that.

Mike Maddock: 1:05

Yeah, so for the last few decades I've been in the middle of David and Goliath conversations. What's interesting is it's usually Goliath that's afraid of David.

Amanda Ballard: 1:16

Interesting. Explain that more.

Mike Maddock: 1:19

One of my favorite phrases in an appster moment, and an appster moment is when someone with no business being in your business comes along and puts you out of business, just like a 16-year-old named Sean Parker did to the record industry. And what happens is that when you run a big company, you're good at making small moves and you're not as responsive as you should be. And so these little tiny companies are what keep the big CEOs up at night. They're afraid that they're missing something and that they're not going to be able to move as quickly as possible to get in front of it. So usually I'm working for Goliath that's afraid of David, and I like it because I'm an entrepreneur and I consider myself David, always taking on Goliath.

Tina Smith: 2:05

Yeah, so what do you find are the easiest tactics or ways that David can take on Goliath?

Mike Maddock: 2:14

The unfair competitive advantage that a small entrepreneur has against a big company is, first and foremost, they're closer to the customer, so they hear every day, every moment, what the customer wants. They're not encumbered by these big corporate decisions and shareholders that demand profits, so that they can listen and change and move more readily than big companies. So you hear the phrase voice of the customer and if you're a big company, you hire a research company and you do all kinds of qualitative and quantitative research and you focus in on one problem to solve and a year later you're ready to solve it. Meanwhile, these little retailers or smaller companies have solved it 28 times already and they're optimizing that solution. So they're so far ahead of the big box retailers, which is why, if you look at these big companies, they're constantly buying small companies because they've solved the problem that they haven't even gotten to yet.

Tina Smith: 3:18

Amanda, does that give you any ideas for what some of our stores can do?

Amanda Ballard: 3:22

Yeah, I mean it makes me sad almost to hear that, because I hear that I'm like, oh man, there's so much hope. But also then you have basically what you said of oftentimes it's Goliath that's afraid of David, and it's like I think that we have it all wrong, because I think there's so many of these smaller companies that are like, oh yeah, amazon's the bad guy, walmart's the bad guy, and it's like I don't think that's necessarily true, but how to get that in their heads of you have so much more mobility as a business when you're at a smaller level than, like you were saying, it could take a year to possibly even make steps to solving a problem, yeah, so I think it gives me hope, but also it's like wake up, yeah.

Mike Maddock: 4:14

So being a retail expert does not make you a vitamin expert, a tool expert. I prefer to go to ACE hardware over Home Depot or Menards, or what do you all have down there? Is it Glows? Yeah, and the reason is because their tagline used to be ACE is the place with a helpful hardware man. Now it's a PC version of that.

Mike Maddock: 4:42

Ace is the place with the helpful hardware folks, and the reason is because they're really good at hiring retired service people who know how to fix things. And so when you go to an ACE, you hear someone say can I help you with something? They actually can. You can go into the plumbing aisle and they know how to bleed a pipe, or you can go into the electrical aisle and they know which gauge of wire you need, et cetera, et cetera. And that is their unfair competitive advantage. They're actually hiring people that are experts in what they're selling, not in running a store. And so you see that again and again and again. Where, again, getting back to the voice of the customer, they know the language, they know the fears, they know the mistakes and they're ready to help you.

Mike Maddock: 5:30

And for me, time is the most valuable thing that I have. So I have to run back and forth to Home Depot 20 times, or I can go to ACE hardware once or twice. I'm going to choose ACE hardware, even though it's more expensive. I don't even think about that, because time is money. So what I see is A great retailers listen to their customer B. They hire professionals to work in their stores that are experts at what they're selling, not at running a store, and that creates again a really amazing advantage for them because they can very quickly respond to the needs of the customer.

Amanda Ballard: 6:09

Yeah, I think that's interesting because I think where maybe some of our industry friends maybe struggle is they see this huge amount of American consumers that are taking natural products and they're like the customer base just keeps growing and growing but they don't know how to maybe get in front of those potential customers who are already shopping at these big box retailers. So then when they hear, oh, vitamin D is good for you or you should take a multivitamin, organic's best. And then they go into their local target and they see, oh, this is an organic multivitamin, it must be good. I think that price is good. How do you get people to kind of pay attention to David when they only shop with Goliath?

Mike Maddock: 7:05

So one of the mistakes that Goliath will make is they will benefit load. I love the story of Tevo. I don't know if you all remember Tevo, but Tevo was the first DVR and Tevo became a verb. I'm going to Tevo it. They had a three-year head start on every other cable company, every other DVR, but the challenge was they weren't using the voice of the customer.

Mike Maddock: 7:33

The technologists started loading up the benefits so it can record, you can watch it when you want. No more blinking 12s, no more like all these different things, and people like me would go wait, what does Tevo do? And eventually I bought Tevo and I just loved Tevo and it became a raging fan. But they lost the battle because they, instead of figuring out the one thing that customers really wanted, the one benefit that mattered most no more blinking 12s, whatever that was it's easy to identify if you're listening to your customer they told you all the things it could do and they confused the market. I see that in vitamins, just by way of example. You know vitamin D. It helps you lose weight, it helps with hair loss, it helps you sleep better, it helps you like. What does this thing do? And I think that experts at the point of sale can say listen, this is the number one thing that you're most interested in, and this doesn't do it, this does, or this in combination, so that expertise using plain spoken language is where that advantage happens.

Mike Maddock: 8:41

That's not happening on Amazon. That's not happening at Whole Foods. Well, maybe it is once in a while, but only if there's someone in that aisle who can say oh yeah, I'm in this aisle for a reason you know. There's all kinds of examples. I remember we worked with Essie Johnson many years ago on the pledge brand and customers are saying I just want stuff that works on multiple surfaces. And so we did this big brainstorm, yada, yada yada. We wound up naming a product multi surface pledge, because that's what people want it, that's what they were actually calling it, and so that connection is simple. As it is only happens if you're listening to your customer, and you can only do that if you're with your customer every day. So I mean I hope that helps. I hear a lot of benefit loading happening when it comes to things like vitamins and foods etc.

Tina Smith: 9:40

The big thing, though, that I'm hearing is listening is a skill, and then using the same language that your customers are using is a way to stand out online on billboards so that the customer sees the advantage that they're looking for.

Mike Maddock: 9:56

Right. So, tina, this is your expertise. You are a master at using plain spoken language and the questions that people are really asking quietly, not technical terms. These are the conversations people are actually having and that's what they're searching. That's what they're looking for, and when they search and they find you, the small retailer, they feel kindred. They're like, oh, they get me and they're local, they're close at hand. I want to go talk to someone that can really help me.

Mike Maddock: 10:28

Here's the other thing. You know, health is a really intimate decision. It's like money. You know these are things that you quietly want to whisper. You don't just go telling everyone that. You know I'm worried, my hair is falling out, I'm losing weight and not sleeping, I'm like screaming at my partner because I'm so anxious. You, those are, those are personal conversations that you probably aren't going to have with Amazon or pick a big box. You can have them with a friend and when you have that relationship, they're going to come back to you again and again and again. And you know I, I also think you have to be really truthful, you know I mean there's, there's a. The slippery slope here is bullshit. You know it's okay to say we don't know, we're not sure about this. Here's the data we found. That's way better than the treasure hunt that most people go on and, you know, confirm their biases, et cetera.

Amanda Ballard: 11:26

Yeah, and I love that. And I think again, most of the retailers I know they they definitely lean into that transparency, or at least I hope they do. They say they do, so I hope they actually do it in practice. But I know, like multiple retailers, I've worked out where it's like we had a computer on the sales floor where we could pull up let's look at the clinical trials on this product and see, like, if you don't take my word for it, here we go Like you know, walk over together, read through those studies, or oh, I'm not really sure, can we double check and make sure that this you know vitamin isn't going to interact with your medications? Like, do those things to build that trust? And and you know, another thing that I found especially kind of when there might be some like questionable business Ethic type things.

Amanda Ballard: 12:19

I know we had this years ago with some brands that were selling to selling on Amazon for what we could, like we couldn't even pay that price wholesale and we're like this just isn't going to fly for us. We would take those products off the shelf and customers would come in and be like why can't I buy that anymore? And it's like, well, we had to make a hard decision about just our business partnership. But you know what we found? That here's a product that's as good, if not better, with a company that we actually trust, and so then it's like you can have that connection and explain you know why you're making the decisions you're making, being the gatekeepers of what comes in and off of your shelves. I think that speaks volumes to customers.

Mike Maddock: 13:07

You just made me think that's something else. Amanda, I love that you're using a computer, real time, and saying, yeah, I don't know, let's check it. It reminds me of a story years ago. We were, my wife and I were looking to adopt a child, and it was an open adoption. And in open adoption you have to go through a list of 300 questions about like health stuff that you would be willing to accept or not. And I want to call my cousin, john, who is a cardiologist at the Mayo Clinic, and I'm like John. I don't know what any of this stuff means.

Mike Maddock: 13:40

Can you help me understand what these Latin terms mean, to know whether I'm willing to adopt a baby? With this Latin term and I remember he kept going, I don't know what that means. Hold on a second. He goes, mike.

Mike Maddock: 13:54

What you need to understand is when doctors leave the room, it's because they don't know the answer. They're going to a computer and they're typing it in because they're trying to figure out the right answer. We don't know the answer. So if doctors can do that, when it comes to a baby you can certainly do it at point of sale, and that kind of honesty is really refreshing. You know, again, it's no BS, I don't know, but I'm concerned and I know how to find out. I was having a conversation with Tina getting ready for this call and I said I looked at WebMD. And she goes hold on a second. I'm going to send you a different link, because WebMD is fine, but this one's better. She had done the work and wanted me to be informed when I was trying to make decisions about that and I was really grateful for it.

Mike Maddock: 14:41

That's a big deal, so I love that. And there's also, you know, there's this term called marketing myopia or, depending on where you live in the country, marketing myopia. Have you all heard of that?

Amanda Ballard: 14:55

I'm not familiar.

Mike Maddock: 14:56

No, Okay, so there's a Harvard professor in the 60s, his name is Theodore Levitt, and he came up with Marketing Myopia. His thesis was that people get so good at being in a business that they forget the business that they're in, and so he used tycoons at the turn of the century. You know railroad tycoons. They own every rail car, every track, every. You know trading cars. They everyone on their team thinks about you know this how to get cheaper steel, how to lay tracks quicker, how to be safer in a train, how to get fuel for trains, et cetera, et cetera. And they wake up one day and they and if you ask them what their business they're in, they'll say, well, we're in the train business, which is incorrect. If, instead, they had thought, well, we're in the transportation business, those same tycoons today would own every plane, every ship, every railroad, et cetera. But they got myopic about the business that they were in.

Mike Maddock: 15:55

And so I think the most important question that entrepreneurs can ask themselves is what business are we really in here? Or, said differently, what business do we have the right to be in? And if you think you're in the retail business, you are competing with Amazon. You are, and you don't want that fight. Amazon is in the retail business. They are in the disrupting retail business. You don't want to pick that fight. So the question is what business are you really in, or what business do you have the right to be in and when? You can answer that question based on your unique abilities and the questions you're answering to your customers every day, you have the right to develop parallel tracks of business that Amazon never would want to or never could. Does that make sense?

Tina Smith: 16:46

Yeah, and I think that most of the retailers out there that will be listening to this will believe and understand that they are health and wellness partners, not just supplement providers or retailers or that sort of thing. And the thing I love about that is it's all about building trust and transparency and relationship with the customer that comes in the door. And at the same time they start to fight these battles. Sometimes whenever they've been representing brands as this is a brand you can trust and Amanda kind of hit on this earlier but they're sort of hanging their brand alongside the brand of a manufacturer because they believed in the process and in the manufacturer, in their transparency and their trustworthiness, and then sometimes that brand starts to no longer deliver on their promise and then the customer can get confused because the health and wellness partner said this is something that you can trust, but now it's not anymore. So what do they do when that happens?

Mike Maddock: 17:50

Yeah, so I think that if you're in the retail business, you're totally screwed because essentially, you're putting stuff on the shelf and hoping that someone else's brand carries the flag for you and as soon as they drop that flag, you're done If you're in, how did you describe it?

Tina Smith: 18:09

Health and wellness partners.

Mike Maddock: 18:11

Okay.

Mike Maddock: 18:11

So let me tell you a story. That, because that means something to me, but I'm not sure it's direct enough. What does health and wellness partner mean? I have a friend, his name is Rick Jameson, and Rick is a Canadian and he is the Breakpad King of North America. What does that mean? Well, he's been manufacturing breakpads for every major manufacturer, and his dad did for four or five decades.

Mike Maddock: 18:43

And I called him just after COVID started and I said Rick, how are you doing? And he's like, oh yeah, this COVID thing, hey, it's nuts, huh. And I said, yeah, what are you gonna? How's business? He goes oh, it's good, it's good, you know. But you know what I think I'm gonna do. Have you heard of these ventilators? There's a ventilator shortage. I think I'm gonna build ventilators. And I said well, rick, you're the Breakpad King of North America, what right do you have to build ventilators? And he said well, you got that wrong. Like, see, I don't know if you know it, but breakpads are a regulated product because they have asbestos in them, and I'm a CPA and what I do is I negotiate contracts in a regulated industry. My expertise, the business I'm actually in, is in the highly regulated contract business, and ventilators. Medical products are highly regulated. I know how to negotiate contracts like that, so I'm gonna go win some. I just happen to manufacture breakpads. I just happen to sell vitamins. I just happen to sell organic foods. I just happen I'm in the highly regulated product contract negotiation business.

Mike Maddock: 19:55

That conversation, 45 days later, I called Rick back and said how is it going? He had won a $500 million PO, he'd signed $500 million, he'd never made a medical device in his life but he knew the business that he was in and that opened up the possibility for him to go. Yeah, I'm just gonna do ventilators. And he did it. I mean, he manufactured ventilators because he knew the business that he was in. So I guess what I would press your listeners to do and there's a process for this and if anybody's interested, send me a note and I will send you like a cool Venn diagram to think about it in a quick process. But it's what are your unique skills? What do your customers want from you? Forget about the products for a second. Think about what they're asking you to do and what your staff can uniquely offer them. And that's where the parallel businesses are.

Mike Maddock: 20:53

One last thing we did a prediction market study just after the pandemic started, to figure out the future advice of advice or professional advisors. So it sounds like the people that listen to this podcast are professional advisors and a prediction market is like Wall Street or a Vegas gambling book. People put their own money in to make a prediction and they get paid more, like the robots, and algorithms pay them more money based on the data behind their prediction. How many people bet behind them, follow their prediction? Yada, yada, yada. We came up with 12 predictions.

Mike Maddock: 21:31

The number one excuse me, the number two greatest prediction and it's gonna happen in two to three years was that people will buy things. It was we called it the horizontal land grab that trusted advisors would be able to sell other products, other services, based on their unique place in the market. So insurers will be able to sell trusts, realtors will be able to sell landscaping and home repair, because why? Why trust my realtor to know who all those people are? So, based on the relationship and the knowledge you bring to the relationships you have. So again, I will say, the most important question that your listeners can be asking themselves is either what business are am I in or what business do I have the right to be in Once you figure that out. It won't matter whether you're selling brand A or brand B, because you will be the trusted advisor that can do all kinds of things with your customer.

Tina Smith: 22:35

Yeah, just as a note. We won't wait for people to ask for the Venn diagram. We'll get it up in the notes for the podcast.

Amanda Ballard: 22:43

No, I love that Cause. I mean we talk about this all the time how you know if you are the health and wellness authority in your community people are coming to see you for you, not because of the products that you sell Like that's just icing on the cake. And so it's like, if you don't feel like you have that authority, if you've, maybe you did have that, you know, 20 years ago when you started your business, but you've kind of lost, your kind of lost that wow factor that maybe you had back in the day. You know, maybe that's not true anymore. So I think asking those hard questions I think is really important to do.

Tina Smith: 23:27

And one of the things that we were talking about yesterday, Amanda, you and I were it's the online commerce piece and the fulfillment of customer expectations, because Amazon has really sort of set the table for what that expectation and delivery needs to look like and if you're a smaller retailer, it's difficult to get online and to fulfill in that same way and to meet all of those online expectations.

Mike Maddock: 23:54

So I wonder how many of your retailers have considered going online or white labeling product themselves? You know, if it's all about convenience, there's no reason why your retailers can't say, well, no problem, we can send it online with this other brand, but we can only get these brands directly to the store because they're special. I mean you can differentiate. Here's a dirty little secret. I have plenty of friends and clients that are selling B2B, but they went B2C white label version. No one needed to know, and their strategy for competing with Amazon was to be a smaller version of Amazon, and they did it secretly because they didn't want to tick off their B2B partners. So you can be aggressive with that, and it does occur to me that I'm here going. You know, what business do you have the right to be in? You know it's like I don't know.

Mike Maddock: 24:54

One of the challenges that I've faced over the years is I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm good at starting and really lousy at finishing. You know I'm your starter but not your finisher, and I noticed that companies that are really good at pivoting when things you know are, you know they're being punched in the face by the future are equally as bad at finding a formula that works and sticking with it. So in my own experience, whenever everything was going really well, I just wanted to start a new thing and I should have been focused on no wait a minute, something's working here. I should scale this and it's an issue. And so having an advisory board that is balanced, like I wrote a book called Free the Idea Monkey it's back there and it was about Roy Disney and Walt Disney like the operator and the visionary, the idea monkey and the ringleader and the paradox the partnership paradox is that if you get along really well with your partner, it's probably the wrong partner. Because you want a partner that thinks differently under pressure. You want a partner that when you know I'm ready to put on the jazz hands and come up with the next big idea, the partner's going no, we need to focus on what got us here.

Mike Maddock: 26:14

You know, and to extend that, the greatest companies that I know have an advisory board or a board of directors and there are six characters around it. There's the visionary, the idea monkey, there's a strategist like Tina. Tina's a strategist. There's a rainmaker, there's a visionary, there's a tech futurist and there's an orchestrator and, under pressure, each one of those people see a different type of opportunity. So, for example, if you own a retail store and you're no longer profitable, the operator will say let's cut costs, let's look at the P&L and what will be profitable the next month. The strategist will say well, maybe we're measuring the wrong thing. What are our goals here? The rainmaker will say we need more business.

Mike Maddock: 27:03

The visionary will say we need to acquire or start something new or come up with some kind of term like marketing myopia. Maybe we're in the wrong business. The tech futurist will say we should go online, we need a tech stack. And the orchestrator will say something like we have the wrong people. We're just not getting along. We're afraid to challenge each other, and the question is who's right? And the answer is that they're all right at different points in time. But unless you have each one of those characters who can look at a problem through a different lens, you're going to be a hammer looking for a nail and said differently my buddy Marshall Goldsmith, what got you here won't get you there. And so if you were great at starting a story and everything was going really well until it wasn't, it's probably because you're out of bounds. You don't have the executive team or the board of advisors that can say you keep trying to solve the same problem over and over again. It might be you're working on the wrong problem, and so I'm a big believer in boards of advisors.

Mike Maddock: 28:04

I started a company called Flourish Advisory Boards. It is turnkey just for this, and I love being in the room where someone that's been trying to solve a problem just like this one over and over again all of a sudden shifts and go wait a minute. I'm thinking about this the wrong way, and that's how you get unstuck. That's how you scale, because I know how maddening it is to be in a situation and just nothing you're doing is working anymore and people are depending on you To figure it out. It's lonely. It's a lonely spot to be in.

Tina Smith: 28:40

So when you say this is turnkey, you mean that you have a board of advisors that are ready to help people make decisions.

Mike Maddock: 28:49

Yeah, I interview Entrepreneurs, ceos, P&L owners to figure out which seat which of those six seats they run to when their hair is on fire. We're having their best day of their life. It's the same seat. And then I'll put together virtual groups that meet once a month that Bring their toughest personal and business challenges and they talk about them and they get to see how that problem is viewed through five different lenses. It's really remarkable, actually, how Well, first, how good it feels to hear that many people have had the same issues and, second, to hear that maybe there's a different way to look at it that is, that will create a breakthrough in your life or company.

Amanda Ballard: 29:31

Yeah that's that sounds awesome. I know this was one of the first things that Tina kind of helped me with Years ago when we started working together is like, well, what does your business do? And it's like we do 50 things. It's like no, like pick, like no more than three, like what do you really do? And it's like get out of your head and think through like and what a customer see you do.

Amanda Ballard: 29:56

It's like it's so easy to get wrapped up in All of the things that you do and just be like, but how do you communicate it in one second? So, yeah, I think that that would be an incredibly helpful tool for these business owners to, just Because so many of the, the retailers that we work with, are like they're just mom and pop, like you know it's, it's the, you know the, the founder of the company, and you know maybe they're their child, or you know it's a husband and wife team or whatever, and they've just been doing this for so long and it's so easy to just get very just you, you lose sight of what's going on outside of your four walls.

Mike Maddock: 30:41

Yes, and building on that, amanda, the tendency is to be embarrassed and to hide. You know it's, it's Well, I can't figure this out and I don't want to talk about it because I can't figure it out and that's the wrong strategy. You know, I've been involved in these groups for 25 years. I've been in one of these groups for 23 and then another one for 15, and I'll tell you what it is. It sustained me through some very, very difficult times because you know, you know not to get too soft or squishy, but when someone really understands you and like the good, the bad and the ugly, and still Mots to support you and loves you for it, it's, it's so, it just it's such a lift, you know it's.

Mike Maddock: 31:33

There's so much weight that comes off your shoulders and I think business owners all that share that in common. They, they, carry a giant burden. I had a friend, dave Kaplan God rest his soul who used to say the crown is heavy. I mean, who do you talk to about? I might need to let someone go, or this person that I'm working with is not working out, or Because you know everyone sees you as this, oh, that must be really hard. Business owner who doesn't have a boss that can make their own hours and pays themselves Whatever they want. Well, it okay. It is hard because people are people and there aren't a lot of people you can talk to about those types of issues. So it's, it's um, it's wonderful if you can find a group like that.

Tina Smith: 32:18

Yeah, and what stands out to me is that I know organizations like sin pa and others are a great place for community among similar business owners, and yet there's so much richness and depth outside of the natural products industry. So if you can find an advisory board that is not just in your industry or not just Retailers, then it's. It helps you get a deeper perspective.

Mike Maddock: 32:47

Yeah, and I thank you for reminding me I. My favorite saying is you can't read the label when you're sitting inside the jar. What does that mean? It means the longer you've been in a relationship, a Industry, a company, the more of an expert you become. You know it works, you know how, what people want to buy, you know what you can sell, you know what you can afford, you know you've tried in the past. You know, you know, you know, you know. And the more you know, the harder it is for you to see possibility when it's walking right in front of you, when your customers keep asking you for it, and so you know.

Mike Maddock: 33:21

My one of my companies has done work with 25% of the the biggest brands in the world, and when they're gonna start an innovation group. My first piece of advice is for the love of God, please do not hire someone from me, from within your industry, because they're experts and the Napster moment Happens when someone with no business being in your business, not an expert comes along and puts you out of business because they see possibility that you can no longer see. That happens in industry groups. You know I love industry groups because you can take shortcuts but you're not going to find disruption, you're not gonna find the best ways to pivot looking at what everybody else is doing in your industry, regardless of the industry.

Tina Smith: 34:08

I think that's great, and the other thing that it brought to mind for me, amanda We've been talking about this. There are a lot of those husband and wife owners, or Just people who have started the business but they brought their children up into the business, who are owners and operators now themselves, and or aspiring to be, or someone on the team who's just a great operator. That might be the next generation, and this sounds like an awesome opportunity for them to learn from other business owners how to run a store. So maybe you've found what you act, what your business actually is, but on top of that, you still do have to run retail. Well, right? I?

Mike Maddock: 34:52

I have Four flourish advisory members that were referred to. They're operating presidents Not family members, but operating presidents that were referred to by CEOs in other advisory boards that I run who said I want this person who is now running a division for me or a new company that we just acquired To have ideas that aren't my ideas. I want them to be able to go out into the wild and come back and see things differently. Then we see them here. I need this person, needs that. So, whether it's a son, a partner, a P&L owner, whatever, having being able to go out and bring in new perspective is where all the action is. You know it doesn't diminish industry knowledge, but I'm assuming most of your listeners already have that. You know, they already know they're successful at Doing what they did yesterday a little bit better today, but when the earth is shifting under your feet, usually that's not enough.

Tina Smith: 35:53

All right. Well, this is all great. Where can people find out how to join a flourish advisory board?

Mike Maddock: 36:00

flourish advisory boards, comm, is how you find the information about that. And you know I'm happy to help anybody. If you send me a note and you have a question, if I can connect you To people or possibility, I'm happy to do it. It's, I think it's what I was born to do, so don't hesitate to reach out. And and everything I'm talking about is contained in a book, a Forbes article, an ink article, a white paper. So there's, I talk really fast because I'm from the Midwest, but I assure you there's more information that I can send you if you'd like.

Tina Smith: 36:37

Every interview e gets asked a few questions at the end of our podcast. So I'm reading you want to do the honors?

Amanda Ballard: 36:46

Okay, so first question Um so, who do you kind of pay attention to follow? What books do you read? So you can kind of just stay at the top of your game In business.

Mike Maddock: 36:59

I should have a better answer for this my mentor, rick Voron. He's the chairman of Stagan Integral Leadership. I went to him and said I was just complaining I won't mention the name because it's mean, but there was a famous CEO that had written a bunch of books and I saw him on TV with his new mistress and I was so mad I'm like, oh my gosh, he's not even divorced yet. I was totally judging capital J judging. I said I just have trouble learning from people that I don't like or respect. Rick said, mike, you need to learn how to judge the medicine, not the vessel.

Mike Maddock: 37:45

I tend to pay attention to people that I really like and respect, like Patrick Lenzioni, I really like Pat but and Marshall Goldsmith I mentioned earlier. But then there are people that are disruptors, that have a dark side. Like I pay attention to Elon Musk because he is ridiculous in how he thinks about the world and what he does, even though honestly, I think he's a little cray-cray sometimes, much of the time, and I will admit to you that I'm like a mile wide and an inch thick. I tend to like pop from one thought leader to another and, if I can, my rule is if I can take one nugget that makes me go huh. That's enough for me, so that's a. I'm not sure that's a long answer, amanda, but there you go. Good one though.

Amanda Ballard: 38:44

So what do you think and this is probably a loaded question or just not easy to answer but you have a single biggest decision that has led to your success in business.

Mike Maddock: 38:56

I have paid more attention to my dreams than my fears. That's my decision.

Tina Smith: 39:03

Shortest answer.

Amanda Ballard: 39:04

Was not expecting that.

Tina Smith: 39:07

It was a good one, though it is good I like it.

Amanda Ballard: 39:10

That could be like a slogan on a coffee mug or something.

Mike Maddock: 39:13

Total t-shirt. You were due for a short answer. You're welcome.

Tina Smith: 39:17

No, I like. I like that because we sort of started the podcast around some mindset pieces and this just brings it all back to hey, this paradigm shift of David shouldn't be afraid of Goliath, Goliath should be afraid of you and they are and also, don't pay attention to your fears, pay attention to your dreams. So it all leaves so nicely together. I feel like we just need to close right there, Like if the musicians will come to their entrance.

Amanda Ballard: 39:53

Forget the rest of my questions. Okay, so, since you are not inside the natural products industry, do you have anything that you think that we should change about how we market in the natural products industry? As an outsider looking in, I mentioned it earlier.

Mike Maddock: 40:16

I think that, like every industry, it can be tainted by a few bad people. Like I have a friend, very good friend, who got cancer, and he was. He grew up in Iowa, osage, iowa he's still with us but he was a sophomore in college and he went to a chiropractor who this is God's truth who balanced a stainless steel jar on his belly button, had him do leg lifts say watch your toes and started throwing vitamins into the jar. And he goes. When your toes become even, that's what you need to take. And he told me this story and he's like Michael, michael, it was amazing, michael, it was amazing. I'm like Brian, are you kidding me? And he goes. I go, that's what you're going to do to treat this cancer. He goes. I'm also going to the Mayo Clinic. I'm like, oh, thank God.

Mike Maddock: 41:15

And so I think that there is a dark side to every industry, including natural products and vitamins, that creates a huge opening for the bright side, where it's like yeah, that's not true, that's not true, we don't know. We don't know, this is what we know. I am going to go to the retailer or to the person, to the expert who cuts the BS and just says this is what we know. And that takes work, but I think that's how trust is built. So no BS vitamins would be an interesting brand that just told the truth. Like you turn around it's like we don't really know what this does, but like, please, somebody tell the truth. And that would be the first group I would go to. When emerging science starts to know, I think people are willing to give it the benefit that it's out. So again, long answer number two. For those of you who are keeping track it reminds me of.

Amanda Ballard: 42:25

We called them the leaners. They would come into the store and hold the bottle close to their chest and it's like, whether they lean forward or not, when they held the product, it determined whether or not they should buy it, and if they didn't lean, it's like, nope, can't buy it. And it was just fascinating to watch, so that just made me laugh.

Mike Maddock: 42:48

And you just reminded me of, I think, something I completely forgot about. We did a project for General Mills, probably 10 years ago, and we did ethnographies. We would walk into the store and watch people and there was a certain set of people that really cared deeply about what they were putting into their bodies probably the same people that are listening to this or the customers of the people listening to this podcast and what we noticed was people would pick up cereal, look at it and squint and just squint and then put it back, and they do it all the way down the aisle. And our suggestion was to put the nutritionals on the front of the package and we created a banner where, right on the front, big and bold, you didn't have to pick it up. We put, like fat content, calories, like, right there.

Mike Maddock: 43:37

And if you go down the cereal aisle today, you'll notice that almost everyone has copied it because people just wanted and here's the big aha People assume that if you put the nutritionals up front, you had nothing to hide and they buy it because they figured like you were telling the truth. You're not hiding it in like all the small print, it's right up on the front, so they just put it in their cart and go. Thank you, so there's a thread there to pull.

Amanda Ballard: 44:04

Well, one thing we always like to ask is if you have any suggestions for quick wins for people as retailers in particular, since that's kind of what we're discussing mostly today. What are some quick wins, low hanging fruit, that you think that they could grab a hold of in their business today?

Mike Maddock: 44:25

I'm reminded of the founder of the container store talking about how they paid their employees like 25% above national average and they spent 5X in training. I think if you're an advisor, paying your people more is sort of counterintuitive. And what happens is when you, when you're pinched for money, you're looking to save it everywhere, I would pay your people more. I would go out and find the best people, the most clever, the most invested in the business that you're in. Pay them more, reward the behavior that you're looking for in terms of comp and whatever, whatever. And then one other thing there is a.

Mike Maddock: 45:16

I remember when I went to hire my business partner, maria. She had come from a Fortune 20 company. She was the head of marketing for this company. There's no way I could afford her. And she said and I'm like I know what you make, I can't pay you that you make like twice what I make, I can't pay you. And she said well, what you need to understand, mike, is that there's I'll call it a compensation buffet and you have things in your buffet that are not available to me where I am right now, things like time and creativity and being able to laugh and not having to worry about A, b and C and writing.

Mike Maddock: 45:55

I've always wanted to write yada, yada, yada, yada and that's worth way more than me to me than money. It's not about money. So when I say pay people more, try to have a conversation about what that compensation buffet looks like. You know, it might be like I want a different title. I want to be, I want to be the head, like the future engineer, the health future engineer, whatever. Some people care about title. Some people care about being part of the decision making or being on the team or having, you know, being able to come and go as they please. All that stuff is part of the compensation buffet. So pay them more, but pay them what they want. Don't make it about money.

Amanda Ballard: 46:38

I love that. It's funny. I've had so many conversations with people that have come from these big box retailers that come to work for these, you know, independently owned grocery stores and natural products retailers, and they're just like man. It's so nice to just be able to make a sign the way that I want it to look and not be like here you go, like this is the sign. It's like no, like I get creativity and freedom to fail and get the money and get to put my own little flair on things where. It's like you walk through the aisles and you're like oh, I can tell who made that sign. Like simple things like that of just being able to be creative, like it's amazing how much that means to people.

Mike Maddock: 47:20

Amen, sister. You know I mentioned Ace Hardware. John Van Heisen, their CEO, is a friend of mine. I actually met him because he was giving a sermon at church one day during my nephew's baptism, and I went up to him afterward and like you're a really good speaker, are you a preacher? He goes no, I work in hardware. I just happened to be here and we became friends and eventually he became CEO and we've done a little bit of work for them and it's actually their business model that makes all this happen. You know they are structured such that people that really care about the industry can start their own places, they can hire their own people, they can compensate those people the way they want, and the mothership is just there to support that buffet of comp. So there's a there there and just bringing it all back to Goliath. Goliath ain't doing that. Goliath can't do that.

Amanda Ballard: 48:10

They have to be cookie cutter.

Mike Maddock: 48:12

Yeah, we're sitting here with UAW on strike against three large automakers who are like we can't do that, we won't do that. If we do that, we have to do it for thousands and thousands of people and it's just too big for them to even think about. You can do whatever you want. You own your own company Awesome.

Amanda Ballard: 48:30

So if people want to get in touch with you, Mike, how can they do that?

Mike Maddock: 48:37

I'll just keep it at flourishadvisoribordscom. If you send me a note there, I'll see it, or Stephanie, my number two here, will make sure that I see it and I will be in touch with you if you want to be in touch with me.

Tina Smith: 48:53

That's wonderful. Thank you so much for agreeing to spend your time with us today. I know that our listeners are going to get so much value out of this, having some quick wins and also a lot to chew on and think about, especially as they walk through your Venn diagram that we'll provide in the show notes.

Mike Maddock: 49:10

That Venn diagram. Nice to be with you, tina and Amanda, it's been a real pleasure.

Tina Smith: 49:16

Okay, and as sort of an ending here. Now here's a personal question Should people listen to this podcast?

Mike Maddock: 49:25

If you own a small retail operation and you feel like you are, david, taking on Goliath every single day, this podcast is for you. Thanks so much for listening to the Natural Products Marketer podcast.

Amanda Ballard: 49:39

We hope you found this episode to be super helpful. Make sure you check out the show notes for any of those valuable resources that we mentioned on today's episode and before you go we would love for you to give us a review.

Tina Smith: 49:50

follow like and subscribe to our channel. Follow like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify, youtube or wherever you're listening today, and make sure you join us for our next episode, where we give you more marketing tips so that you can reach more people and change more lives.