John Jantsch: 0:00

The real missed opportunity that I see for just about every category of business is this whole idea of strategic partnering. I mean, there are so many businesses. A lot of times a customer might be able to refer one or two people to you, but the right strategic partner might refer 500 or put you in front of thousands of people who could come to know you and there's a bit of borrowed trust.

Tina Smith: 0:27

Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer podcast. I'm Tina.

Amanda Ballard: 0:31

And I'm Amanda, and we're here to make marketing easier for natural products businesses, so you can reach more people and change more lives.

Tina Smith: 0:40

Hi there and welcome back to Natural Products Marketer podcast. And today, amanda, I'm so excited One of my good friends, john Jance, is joining us for the podcast today and I have known him now for I don't know four years. We met at a retreat and he is just like chicken soup for the marketer's soul, I think I just love everything about interacting with him.

Amanda Ballard: 1:04

Yeah, this was my first time meeting him and I would definitely agree with that just after just a short conversation, so definitely worth sticking around. In the episode today, we talked about the customer journey how to grow your business and using strategic partnerships and referrals to do that. So stay tuned and enjoy this episode.

Tina Smith: 1:28

John Jance, I'm so excited to have you with us today because I use your customer journey in everything that I do. So every time that I start talking about no like and trust, try by repeat refer. When I say those words, people are like hold on, let me write that down and I'm like you don't have to Like, there's a whole series of it's a magic trick.

Tina Smith: 1:52

Right, they believe that. So what I would love to do today is to really, for our natural product industry listeners, I'd like to go through each of those pieces of the customer journey and what they are and how they might apply to the natural products industries and retailers really local, local industry people.

John Jantsch: 2:16

Super, let's do it.

Tina Smith: 2:17

So let's start with no like and trust. It feels like that's the part, before we get into sort of transactional pieces.

John Jantsch: 2:25

Yeah, and actually before we even talk about that chunk just as a whole, I always like to share with people that those are behavior terms. Those are things we want to do, I think, as buyers, and I think that today kind of creating demand is gone. It's more about organizing behavior, because even though tons of things have changed in marketing, probably the thing that's changed the most is how people decide to buy the access to information they have today. So a lot of what we're trying to do, I think, is now just kind of guide that journey or organize that behavior. So no, like and trust, I think, are behaviors that we want to go through.

John Jantsch: 3:04

If you think about it, if you've got a problem or if you're looking for something, you got to know who's out there. We all make kind of that first impression Do I like what I see? How many of us have gone to websites and gone ooh and like, not gone any farther right, and then trust. Obviously, once we start getting a little bit serious, we're like can I trust that they do what they say they do, or, in your particular case, that they're going to have what I want or they're going to understand me or my needs? So that, to me is that's how you start building the relationship, and so many people wanted to skip from hey, come to know about me, buy from me now.

John Jantsch: 3:42

And what happens with that is I mean, sometimes you can be successful doing that, but what happens is along the way is that you're going to get the low price shoppers you're going to get people don't realize why you charge, or should charge, a premium for what you do. So if you take the time to build a great journey through those first few steps, you actually can charge more. I mean, we've all paid more for what we see as a better experience, right, and so you know. That's why we feel like you have to be intentional about building campaigns and processes and even content. You know that's really going to address each of those stages.

Tina Smith: 4:16

Yeah, so I'd love to talk a little bit more about thinking local and what activities might be involved in those stages that can help us, because I think Amanda can speak to this as well. But what we've been hearing from our natural product retailers is that they are going up against Amazon and Walmart and bigger boxes and they really want a way to show up where they are creating a different kind of experience, and so if we can help them know of little ways that they can do follow this no like and trust journey, that'd be great.

John Jantsch: 4:52

I mean they're, they all know this. I'm not saying it's easy to execute on, but their secret weapon is information, or misinformation perhaps, so obviously the trust building factor. For example, you know they, somebody can come in and they can talk to somebody that they feel like gets them, you know, gets what they're trying to accomplish, and they can. You know, once they build that trust, they can debunk the myths. I mean, go on, I buy on Amazon, but go on Amazon, especially, look for natural health products. I mean it's just an absolute mess. I mean everybody's promoting anything. All the reviews are paid. You know people.

John Jantsch: 5:31

I mean there's no way, unless you just absolutely know I'm getting this product from this manufacturer. You know it's a real jungle. And so I think that that, you know, as I said, the secret weapon of course they have is is that they can build a relationship, they can build the trust they can. Actually somebody will come to them and say, look, I don't know anything about these two things, but my doctor said you know, maybe I ought to try this supplement or something, and they're going to, they're going to hopefully develop a relationship with that person where they can say you know, I know you and I think I know what your goals are and you ought to go this way. You're right and I think that's you know that people will no longer will shop price, or shop price exclusively when, when they feel like they're actually getting advice and counsel.

Amanda Ballard: 6:15

Yeah, we talk about that all the time on our show, about, you know, establishing yourself as the health authority in your community and I think that's you know, that's that trust factor is you know, if you scroll Instagram for even five seconds, you know you're going to get hit by some influencer. You know, pushing a product and like, even if you follow them and you kind of feel like, oh yeah, I know, I know that person, you've never met them and never will you start to develop that trust. But it's like when you can establish that locally of like, oh, I can actually go in to that physical brick and mortar location, have those conversations, have that, you know, that connection person to person which I think we all really crave. And then you know from there, this guy's the limit.

John Jantsch: 7:02

And I think also, you know retailers responsibility too, I think, is to make sure they're carrying brands that are very legit, that you know that have the testing and have all the things that are going to make them, you know, really valuable, and I think that's part of the service that they do is just basic, basically, on what their inventory is. You know speaks to a lot of. You know what they have suggested is good and what's bad, because there's so much junk out there. You know the, as you know the. You know the FDA doesn't really monitor a lot of products that are marked as natural, and so you know that's a big part of their. Just what they carry in their store and are willing to sell and not sell, you know, says a lot about how you can trust them.

Tina Smith: 7:43

Yeah, and what I love, John, is you guys have provided a whole cadre of activities that people can put out there and know like in trust, and some of the very things that you're talking about would be a Great place to start with like a comparison guide or just even the education in general.

John Jantsch: 8:02

I mean doing workshops, which I know a lot of your listeners, you know, have have understood the value of that. Somebody can come to know about a store based on a topic that they're doing in a workshop. They listen to the person. I think, hey, I like what they're saying. I've spent 45 minutes listening to you now. I trust that you know what you're talking about and you're not just trying to sell me something and maybe I've even got a sample for you. I mean, so you think about, that's no like trust. Try you know, maybe buy you know In in one sort of activity. So you know it doesn't have to always just be we have to do this for this and this for this. You can move people rapidly through that that journey with the right tactics.

Tina Smith: 8:41

Yeah, amanda, have you seen any of this like in practical application in the stores that you've worked with?

Amanda Ballard: 8:47

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I see it every single day. Just with sampling, you know, yeah, the samples, I feel like, are one of the most effective things, especially when it's you know a food or you know a protein powder, or even like Gummy vitamins, like just being able to have that tangible thing in front of you, have that person be like hey, like, have you tried this new protein powder? Here are all of the amazing benefits. And oh, here's a recipe card that you can take home and make it yourself, or try a new flavor. And I think that that's again, you're just establishing that trust. And and I think it also goes like you know, hey, we care about you, we care that we're gonna put in the time and effort giveaway, free product, and that's a thing too. Like, you know the brands that you carry in your store. They want to support that and they're gonna give you free product. If you're like, hey, let's do a demo, you know, every Tuesday this month we're gonna do a demo it's like, okay, here's free product. Like everyone benefits from this.

John Jantsch: 9:45

Then you got to watch those people to come in just on.

Tina Smith: 9:47

Oh yeah yeah, one of the things that I've seen in some of the supplement stores that we visit locally is Walking in there and sometimes they'll have deeply discounted products as well. So sometimes when I think of that try segment in the customer journey, a lot of times it's free, but there are sometimes where it's just like a really low cost of entry to get people Introduced to the way that you deliver product and service. So in a store if there's something that's deeply discounted, especially at the front of the story, it always catches me whenever I'm on my way out and I'm like ooh, I've been wanting to try something like this, here's my opportunity. And then you get to talk to the person at the cash register about efficacy, what it does, benefits that they've seen and other things like that. So I always like try to be some free, some very low cost entry.

John Jantsch: 10:42

I agree a hundred percent. I just had one little detail to that Help people understand why it is discounted. So, you know, a lot of times people just get in the habit of like, oh, I'm gonna go in there and buy the cheap stuff. You know they'll always have stuff on sale and really, what you're trying to do, obviously in this particular case, because these are consumables and you want them back, you know, make sure that that you are. You know it's, this is a new product, this is something we believe in and we want, you know, we want to get everybody in the habit, you know, of using. So we, you know we we are gonna, for this month or this holiday or whatever it is, we're gonna have a promotion to educate you around this and make it as easy as possible for you to see what we see.

Tina Smith: 11:23

Yeah, absolutely, and here are the some of the benefits that you might experience from it. If you do come back and get more, I love that exactly, yeah, yeah, and and you know.

John Jantsch: 11:31

then you go right into repeat, which is you know Subscriptions and you know all the other ways that you get people to come back for sure.

Tina Smith: 11:38

Yeah, we've been talking about subscriptions, which is big in the natural products world right now, because these are things that you take for 30 days, maybe 60 days or 90 days, before you really start to get the effects from them, and sometimes it's difficult with the payment processors that are for these smaller local retail stores.

John Jantsch: 12:01

So we are constantly looking for ways to provide subscriptions that are Easier for the stores to sort of implement you know, one of the challenges is you know we talked about how they have the physical location They've got the inventory right there. They've got, you know, hopefully you know very educated staff to talk about, you know Products, and so that's a real advantage. They still have to compete with some of the expectations that people have now. I mean Amazon, you know, has subscriptions that you know that met, that are very seamless. In fact, if you've got an Alexa device or device, they'll tell you it's time they, you know, have free shipping. You know they have, obviously, you know tons of selection. So and and people don't even have to put their credit card in anymore, right, because they did it once. So you don't have to be those.

John Jantsch: 12:48

But but you have to realize that the consumer behavior kind of expects Some of those things. So I think a lot of even local retailers need to have an online store if they don't, Because that's obviously a way to make it easier for people who love your advice, but they don't need it for this because they understand what they've got. So you've got to make it as easy as possible, as fast as possible. The processors are out there, the tools are out there, even the stripes of the world that make it very easy to set up subscriptions and you just have to realize yeah, maybe it's a little harder for you, but it's kind of the cost. Now, if you're going to be that step above an Amazon, you have to at least meet them on certain things that people expect. And I hate to pick on Amazon it sounds like I am but I do think that they drive a lot of consumer behavior.

Amanda Ballard: 13:43

We pick on them all the time, so it's fine.

Tina Smith: 13:47

Yeah, absolutely happy to do that. But other ways for repeat buyers to come in.

John Jantsch: 13:53

it's not just subscriptions, no, I mean subscriptions as you said are awesome because there are a lot of times people they know they need this stuff. You've taken that hurdle of them going. Oh, I forgot to go to the store and get that right. So they're awesome, but events really create a tremendous amount of not only repeat business, but another secret weapon that the local store has is community. So now, if you can bring your customers together who probably have a similar interest in their health or maybe they have things that they're challenged with that are similar, I mean bringing those folks together and letting them form a bit of community around your business is a tremendous way to create a defense, if you will, against some of the big box stores that you know they're never going to form any kind of community around us.

Tina Smith: 14:49

Yeah, we're hearing that more and more too, especially post COVID. So there was obviously a moment in time that was both good and bad for these retailers. They profited from some of it because people started really noticing that there were things in this natural products environment that could help them stay healthy during some of the worst times, so that was good for the business as far as that's concerned. But community was really something that we didn't have a lot of capability to do. But the good news on that is people are craving that more and more, and so there's plenty of opportunity to create that in your local stores.

John Jantsch: 15:31

Yeah, and I think community. You know we've always had community churches and schools and things, but you know those were more about location, whereas you know, I think the opportunity they have is community around shared interest and shared topics, and that's a really potent way to form community, but it takes work. I mean it's not a matter of unlocking the door and saying we're a community. I mean you've got to have reasons for them to engage. You have to stay with it, you have to be consistent, you have to make sure that you know you're communicating effectively about the opportunities that are there and really, you know, not look at it as an opportunity to sell, but purely to build people that are going to be ambassadors.

Amanda Ballard: 16:12

Right, yeah, and I think you know these smaller retailers in particular, or even the big ones, they have potential to, you know, develop those customer relationships.

Amanda Ballard: 16:23

Like I had a lady today that was just I did a recipe video and she just came up to me and was like I loved your recipe video, that was so great. I was like I've never met you in my life, but thank you. And like we were able to just start a relationship right then and there, on the spot, and like we bonded over something that you know I created, she enjoyed and was able to make herself, and I think that just those little things and then remembering okay, mental note, what did she look like. So next time when I'm in the store it's like hey, did you see the last recipe that we did? Have you tried that one yet? And just calving those little moments that you can remember with those customers, remembering people's names, like all of that just is again. You'll never get that in these e-commerce type situations and I think it's a strength that these retailers really have to lean into.

John Jantsch: 17:15

And you kind of opened up another avenue there, just talking about the recipe. I mean just strategic partners. You know for the, you know other businesses that that you know your customers might also be interested in, you can bring additional value by partnering with them in ways. I mean the obvious ones are the. You know the yoga studios and the. You know the workout facilities and things that go hand in hand with with.

John Jantsch: 17:39

You know some of the people that are trying to eat health here and do supplements and things of that nature, and so you know, really being somewhat aggressive about building a local business community around your business as well as a customer community is a great way to you know demonstrate you're there for, kind of, the whole person, the whole value you know that you can bring and not not just you know, sell it. I think again that's another thing. You know Amazon's since we're picking on them, you know is not going to, you know hold a fundraiser for the. You know the school up the street, you know, for example. So you know doing as much of that as possible is certainly a way that that you know you get people who who really feel like, hey, I'm going to support them.

Tina Smith: 18:27

Yeah, that is. That's a big deal. When people feel like when they spend their money with you, that it is coming back into their community that they live and work in and their kids play in, it's a really big deal.

John Jantsch: 18:42

Absolutely, and there definitely are people that that you know feel like that it's part of their social responsibility. You know, frankly, to to support those. You know small businesses, and you know I, I heartily agree, yeah.

Amanda Ballard: 18:53

And I don't think it's a bad idea, like you know, just to show that you are giving back to those communities you know sponsor local high school sports teams, like have you know your company's logo on one of the you know this, the signs that goes on the baseball field and things like that, where it's, like you know, even though that might have only cost you like 400 bucks, it's like we're here, we're in the local community. I don't know what the ROI is on that, I don't even think you could even try to quantify it. It's more just this you know we're here supporting our community that supports us.

John Jantsch: 19:30

Yeah, that full page ad in the football program is probably not going to bring in a lot of customers, but no, absolutely. There definitely is a percentage of people that that notice, who you know, who invests in the community, who supports the community, and that's. That's not important to everybody, but it's important to a lot of folks, and I would venture to say that this is a huge generalization. But people who shop at natural food stores are probably a little more socially responsible I shouldn't say responsible, but it's, it's higher on their priorities of, you know, of participating in those types of things.

Tina Smith: 20:04

Yes generalization there, but I do think I know, John, I think you're onto something social connectedness. Maybe it's not social responsibility, but there's something about being connected and how everything affects everyone on the earth. I think that's a big part of who's shopping in these stores.

John Jantsch: 20:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tina Smith: 20:24

And all of that sort of leads me into this refer category, which I think there's sort of two buckets, and you've been doing this much longer than I have, john, you can just correct me or add on if I'm wrong. But the bucket of the people who shop every day can refer you and there's a whole chain of events that you can have around that. But the other thing that you were talking about is connecting with these other people in places who can refer into your client pool. One of these referers is that we've seen work really well is holistic medical providers in the community.

John Jantsch: 21:04

No, I mean, it makes 100%. I happen to my general practitioner is one of those people and she will, instead of prescribing something, she'll say you might try this and that's the treatment I want, that's the advice I want when it's appropriate. And so there's no question that those folks are talking about the things that are on the shelves of these stores and so obviously there's some ethical things about too much of a direct line of and you should shop here, here's a 5% off coupon, but certainly mentioning the products and where they're available. There's no question that that is, they want to send somebody to a place where they're going to get the right thing and they're going to get one that's been tested early and all those things. So there's no question that that's totally logical connection.

Tina Smith: 22:00

Well, and if I think about how pharmaceuticals get into the hands of our doctors, it's through our samples and also hey we're going to train you A lot of bagels.

Tina Smith: 22:12

Yeah, a lot of bagels, but also we're going to train you on what this product does, and the pharmaceutical industry has used that as a growth tactic for a very long time. I do think there's a way especially if you're very well educated on this type of magnesium versus that type of magnesium helping educate the doctor and their staff. Hey, these are the types of and here's some samples and you can get it at our store.

John Jantsch: 22:40

Yeah, and another thing the people that are already 100% bought into that are in natural. I think there's a lot of physicians, especially younger physicians, that are waking up to there's more than one way to treat folks, but they got no education in medical school on a lot of the stuff that are in the supplement category, and so I think that there's a percentage that would be very hungry for. Especially they're very much on research and unfortunately the pharmaceutical research is much more thorough than a lot of supplement research. But especially if you can show science back to education, I think they're more than happy to really take that education in. I think a growing number of physicians yeah, absolutely.

Amanda Ballard: 23:25

I know personally a friend of mine. She's been a physician for about five years now and she knows iron does this in the body. Omega-3s are good for this, but she's like I don't know what quality I should be looking for. I don't know what form of this particular nutrient, other than just the basics. And so it's like, by establishing a relationship with her, it's like well, hey, just refer them to the local health food store. They know those things. And so it's like you don't have to sit them down and personally train them on all the things. It's like just develop enough trust. And where it's like patient comes in and they're like, yeah, I think I should do this. And it's like, yeah, I think that's a good idea for you, go over to the health food store down the street and they'll help you out.

John Jantsch: 24:20

So here's an idea on how to really kind of take that up a notch. So do some outreach to. I mean, every community of any size probably has at least five to eight to 10 doctors or physicians or even chiropractors that have certainly gone down the kind of whole whole wellness path. Bring them together and do a round table with one of your I gotta believe one of your manufacturers has what would be a credentialed scientist on staff that could speak the language very deeply and just hold a round table around a certain problem or a certain treatment or myths, around specific types of treatment. And just by virtue of hosting that group, you will ingratiate yourself with them and they're going to look possibly more favorably on sending people your direction. But you'll also just establish a pipeline of conversation and education with a group. That is a very logical referral source. I love that, yeah.

Tina Smith: 25:31

And so that just sort of brings me to this. Customer journey is not necessarily just about customers, it's also about vendors and partners. Like this is about building relationships.

John Jantsch: 25:44

It is, yeah, yeah, I mean it is we like to talk about. It is it's an end to end journey that really impacts, truthfully, every aspect of the business. Frankly, I mean you could apply this to the hiring process inside a store having a customer journey or an employee or team member journey that doesn't end the day they put on the apron or whatever it is. That is a very holistic approach, you know 100%. This is a framework that there are many, many ways in which you can apply it.

Tina Smith: 26:16

Yeah, and that's huge because right now we know it is tough to find team members to work in retail stores. So if you use this, it really is about creating that relationship to move someone from knowing about who you are to wanting to be a part of what you do.

John Jantsch: 26:35

But then also having an amazing experience, you know, once they're there. I mean there's all kinds of data recently that's popped up because of you know all the people quitting and can't find, you know people to work at their organizations. You know I'm talking about how somebody experiences your business, either as a customer or as an employee, in the first 90 days is going to dictate. You know everything about the long-term relationship and so you know really thinking that through, unfortunately, so many businesses, hiring is way down the list. It's like, oh, we need somebody today. You know it's like take applications, can you show up tomorrow? You know here's. You know here's the packet of information you need. Good luck, right. And so you know it's, and I get it.

John Jantsch: 27:15

You know there's a billion other things in most small organizations. Hiring is nobody's job, you know it's. Or onboarding employees is nobody's job, it's. You know somebody gets assigned to like you're going to follow. You know bill. You know bill around the rest of the day and you know, and you'll learn how to do this. And so you know really creating that amazing experience like you would hope you would do for a customer, you know for a team member, because you know, let's face it after you know, after you get to five or six people in your, in your organization, you know that's how, that's who people are experiencing your brand from. It's no longer you, and so you know you want to make sure that those people are just as jazzed about being there as you are.

Tina Smith: 27:56

And they'll refer other people.

John Jantsch: 27:58

No question, I mean that's always for most organizations. That is the absolute best pipeline for employees. But they're not going to do it if they're worried about what they're going to put their friend through.

Tina Smith: 28:10

And I love putting these two things side by side, because exactly what you just talked about with the 90 day onboarding is the same for customers as well.

John Jantsch: 28:18

You bet.

Tina Smith: 28:19

So just keeping them making that a really great experience at the beginning is really important for making your store very sticky.

John Jantsch: 28:31

And I think we failed to mention this, probably at this point. If people are still listening to us talk about this thing that we're calling a customer journey, we actually have a name, and you can find tons and tons of research on it, because I've been writing about it for at least a decade it's called the marketing hourglass. So if you just want to, if you want to Google that or whatever your favorite search engine is, you'll find lots and lots of more information on just this very topic.

Tina Smith: 28:55

Yeah, and just John, while we're talking about all the research and work that you've done on the marketing hourglass and the customer journey, tell us some more about your books.

John Jantsch: 29:08

Well, so in 2007, I wrote a book called duct tape marketing, which was really kind of just my distillation of how I felt marketing should be done. Marketing is a system that begins with strategy before tactics. I followed that up with with really to me the most, in a lot of ways, the most important yet most overlooked aspect of this customer journey, and that is referrals. It's called the referral engine. Most businesses get some word of mouth, some referral business, but very few do anything about it intentionally.

John Jantsch: 29:40

I wrote a couple years ago I decided to write a self help book for myself called the self reliant entrepreneur, which is kind of a daily dive in read something hopefully kind of kicks you in the bottom a little bit and and does pose a question or a prompt for those of you that are journalists. And then, most recently it's probably just an evolution of my marketing thinking wrote something called the ultimate marketing engine and it is. You know, all of my books have this marketing hourglass framework applied to them in some way, shape or form. But that's kind of a quick journey of my books. That can all be found pretty much where everybody books.

Tina Smith: 30:20

So if you're looking for a little bit more information about the marketing hourglass, this customer journey, any of these books would be helpful for you. But also if anyone listening to the podcast if you're still with us and you own a business, I we are happy to give you a copy will send you a copy of john's book the self reliant entrepreneur. I know it changed my life, john. I wrote I read that book two years straight, every single morning, and as a business owner, it really was. I know you said you wrote it as a self help book for yourself, but really it was so timely, every single topic. Whenever I would open it up and read it for the day, I would be like, john, how are you reading my mail again? So it was really helpful for my soul.

John Jantsch: 31:09

Well, I'm glad we're old changer life, because you were headed down a really scary path. I know why we brought you back.

Tina Smith: 31:15

Thank you for saving me.

John Jantsch: 31:20

Next, thing, I know you're going to start playing the band or the base.

Tina Smith: 31:27

Well, it's been so nice having you here, and we usually end our podcast with a few quick questions, okay, Okay, so john, who, who do you like to pay attention to?

Amanda Ballard: 31:41

Who do you follow, who do you read? So you can kind of stay in the know with all things you know. Present day marketing.

John Jantsch: 31:50

There's no simple answer to that for me. I've had my own podcast for since 2005,. I do two episodes a week and, frankly, I read a lot of books and so I kind of use my podcast as my way, because I do get pitched a lot of guests. But I also, you know, for unfortunate enough to be able to reach out and say I want to interview you and so I that's my short answer. There's no like one source. I, you know. I just I feel like my podcast keeps me in everything that's coming up. You know that's, that's somewhat recent. Yeah, awesome.

Amanda Ballard: 32:24

I know that that's been really helpful for me to just like oh, I'm getting fed all this information. This is lovely.

John Jantsch: 32:30

Yeah, I've had more than one guest on that. I've just picked their brain, basically because I wanted to know, like, how I could apply what you know what they're doing.

Tina Smith: 32:36

So for sure, yeah, so if people want to look into your podcast, how do they do that?

John Jantsch: 32:42

So pretty much everything I've been doing for the last couple of decades is at ductapemarketingcom. So it's D? U C, t, t A P E marketingcom. You can find it on. You know iTunes, spotify, you know all those kind of places as well. But you can also find the entire catalog. You know they're on the website.

Amanda Ballard: 32:58

Excellent. So you're not necessarily in the natural products industry but you are familiar with it so kind of from the outside, looking in maybe. What are some things that maybe you would possibly change about how natural products marketing is done?

John Jantsch: 33:14

You know, I think there, I think there's and I'm not probably going to say this the right way, but I think there are people that are, you know, that's very science backed. There's certainly a lot of people that have realized I can make a whole bunch of money, you know, by putting out a supplement line. You know, because I'm an influencer and I had like a cooking show somewhere and now I've got like a supplement line. You know, I kind of wish that whole, you know, because as as the categories become more popular, like everything, you've got a lot of people in it that, you know, do I have no business being in it, and so you know that I don't know if I answered your question, but I, you know, I wish it was a way to really weed that out, because I think some, unfortunately some of those people are really good marketers.

Amanda Ballard: 33:58

I think like Jennifer Aniston, like now owns like vital proteins or something like that, and she came in like after they were well established and now it's like, well, now you're just the face of the company. It's like you don't, you didn't formulate anything, like you're just pretty face on on all the ads now. So yeah.

Tina Smith: 34:16

One of the things that I think that brings to the forefront is really that we're interviewing people and talking greatly about how do you figure out which brands should be trusted and what to look for when you're looking for a good brand. One of the biggest things from our perspective is third party testing and transparency and what you do, so those are two really great hallmarks. It's this trust signal that you can send by being transparent and open, allowing other people to test your product for efficacy.

John Jantsch: 34:50

Yeah, and you know, and some, some brands found out the hard way. You know that eventually customers will know what the deal is and and you know they, you know will will speak out. So obviously you know you, even if you're a really great marketer, you can only do that so long.

Amanda Ballard: 35:08

Yeah, so you've been in marketing for how many years now?

John Jantsch: 35:16

Over 30 now. Yeah, before we had the, before we had the internet. I like to tell people that, because that's just don't even know how that's possible.

Amanda Ballard: 35:24

So what would you say is like the single biggest decision that's kind of led to your success as a marketer.

John Jantsch: 35:32

I don't know if it was the decision. You know, a lot of times you look backwards and you go, oh, that was a great decision, but you really just sort of fell into it. Maybe. Or it felt intuitively like the right path. I would say consistency. You know a lot of platforms have come and gone and you see a lot of people wanting to be first movers in this space or that space and you know I've for 30 years said marketing is a system. It starts with strategy before tactics. Fundamentally, what we are here to do as marketers has not changed.

Amanda Ballard: 36:00

So what would you tell our listeners here that, whether they're a manufacturer or a retailer, what do you think is some low-hanging fruit that they could grab ahold of when it comes to their marketing and capitalize on that?

John Jantsch: 36:16

Well, the first one would be to go to iTunes and give this show an amazing review. I mean, that is the lowest-hanging fruit. I would absolutely do that. One Five stars, of course, is what I'm talking about. After that, I would say the real missed opportunity that I see for just about every category business is this whole idea of strategic partnering. I mean, there are so many businesses. A lot of times a customer might be able to refer one or two people to you, but the right strategic partner might refer 500 or put you in front of thousands of people who could come to know you, and there's a bit of borrowed trust that's already established in that. Because you asked me a really broad question, I'll give you a broad answer, but I always seem to find that that's the easiest, most missed opportunity.

Tina Smith: 37:02

And for a quick one, john, for a local business. What would you say?

John Jantsch: 37:10

I'm guessing a lot of. Here's another thing that I see a lot of businesses not doing. I would say the businesses that you're speaking to the most probably don't fit in this, but I would say, if you're not getting those testimonials, you're not getting user, what we used to call user-generated content, meaning people going onto Facebook talking about your store, giving them, making it really easy to do that, getting those reviews in the third-party places where they need to be. That to me, is a huge trust marker, social proof today, and it's probably a pretty low-hanging fruit because you probably have, you have access to your customers, you're seeing them face-to-face and you probably have some really happy ones that you've never asked to do anything.

Amanda Ballard: 37:57

So if people want to follow up with you I know you had mentioned the podcast. Is there any other way that people can connect with you?

John Jantsch: 38:03

Well, I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook and X. It's hard to say that.

Amanda Ballard: 38:11

It's always Twitter.

John Jantsch: 38:15

But really the launching place I always say is just duct tape marketing D-U-C-T-T-A-P-E marketingcom. I do have a newsletter. We have tons of other free resources there, so that's a great place to find out whether you're a business and want to talk to us about marketing. We also license our methodology to consultants and agencies, and so we can find that information as well.

Tina Smith: 38:39

And we are licensed for duct tape marketing.

John Jantsch: 38:43

We're certified in that process. You are Tina, that's right All right.

Tina Smith: 38:48

Well, john, it's been so great to talk to you First. Thank you so much for giving us your time and the considerable amount of wisdom. I know that everyone in the natural products industry is really going to profit from this conversation.

John Jantsch: 39:01

Well my pleasure.

Amanda Ballard: 39:04

Thanks so much for listening to the Natural Products Marketer podcast. We hope you found this episode to be super helpful. Make sure you check out the show notes for any of those valuable resources that we mentioned on today's episode.

Tina Smith: 39:14

And, before you go, we would love for you to give us a review. Follow, like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify, youtube or wherever you're listening today, and make sure you join us for our next episode, where we give you more marketing tips so that you can reach more people and change more lives.