Seth Spears: 0:00

I'm a big picture thinker and I have the ability to spot patterns and trends and connect dots that a lot of people don't so, for example, Welcome to the natural products marketer podcast.

Tina Smith: 0:14

I'm Tina and I'm Amanda, and we're here to make marketing easier for natural products businesses, so you can reach more people and change more lives. I so I'm so excited to have you on the natural products marketer podcast today. When I was reading through your bio, I thought, oh man, this is a dream guest for our audience. And Yet first we should talk about the fact that we have so much in common Bengals, who today and go get out of here.

Seth Spears: 0:44

You're a Bengals fan, are you I?

Tina Smith: 0:47

mean talking about it that much this year, but Well, burrows out for the year.

Seth Spears: 0:52

So yeah, you're from Cincinnati originally.

Tina Smith: 0:55

I'm not from Cincinnati. It's a crazy story. I didn't get into football until later in life. I was dating a guy who was very into football and that showed that it was an HBO show what was it? Where they follow the teams around.

Seth Spears: 1:11

Oh yeah, yeah, that was a Three or four years ago, yeah.

Tina Smith: 1:14

Well, no, it was gosh, that was 10 and that was over 10 years ago. I think For the first time they were on that show where they followed him around, and I fell in love with the team and Marvin Lewis.

Seth Spears: 1:30

Okay. So I have to ask was it the colors?

Tina Smith: 1:35

No, it wasn't. It was watching that show and watching their personalities, like you saw things about their family and I Was just like oh yeah. I just like these guys. So it was back when ocho Cinco was on the team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fantastic the cats look really good this year. As far as I think you know, they're brand new freshman team. I think they're gonna be great in the years to come.

Seth Spears: 1:59

Hopefully. I mean, you know Calipari is a great recruiter. You know there's a lot of people last year, the past couple years, that are like, hey, maybe it's time for him to go, just because of how quickly you bowed out of the tournament and just Upsets and things like that. So We'll see, I don't know.

Tina Smith: 2:16

I'm always hopeful, all right. Well, let's get to something that the people who are listening actually want to talk about, which is natural products marketing.

Seth Spears: 2:25

We can combine both.

Tina Smith: 2:27

Yeah, absolutely so. Look, you have been involved with a lot of different natural products companies, so I would love to know, like, what was your journey getting into this industry?

Seth Spears: 2:40

2009, I stepped away from my last real job I was living in Nashville, tennessee, with my then wife and kids at the time and Move back to Kentucky where I'm originally from, and I'd gone out of my own Wanted to do consulting for it for homeschool students preparing for college. I was homeschooled from A kindergarten all the way through high school, so the first time I ever actually sat in a classroom or took a test or had to take Notes was my freshman year of college. So and then I worked in collegiate admissions After that. So I was the assistant director of admissions for a college in Nashville and so I had this intimate knowledge of what it was like to be homeschooled and Also, on the collegiate side, on how to, what you needed to do to prepare for college, for admissions, for scholarships, financial aid, all of that. So I wanted to go out on my own and do independent consulting for homeschool students. So as part of that, I created a website and created a course and was doing consulting and Realized there's not a lot of money in it, because most homeschool students don't know that they need this and most of the parents they either aren't willing to spend the money or don't realize how needed it is as well. But that kind of awakened to me the entrepreneurial bug of oh, I actually like making websites and Figuring out how to get traffic and things like that, because I was a marketing major in college and so I'd always been super fascinated by tech and playing around blogs and Just anything technology related, so I just really enjoyed it. So I decided to start a marketing firm and building a websites for small businesses and just getting people online and back in. You know, 2009, 2010, there was a lot of small businesses that either didn't have a web presence or they had a really crappy one. I just didn't work very well because just because you have a website doesn't mean that anybody can find it.

Seth Spears: 4:29

So, and at the same time, I Convince my now ex-wife to start a blog in the health of wellness space, in which I used as a testing ground for my paying clients, and that website was wellness mama calm, which became one of the most popular health and wellness websites for moms. I'm actually the most popular health and wellness website for moms all around natural health and DIY tutorials and how to make personal care products and healthy recipes and everything around that, and we started a podcast for that in 2014, which has done incredibly well over a hundred million downloads In the past nine years and, just you know, has become a major thing. I was still running my, my digital agency, spears, marketing and Growing that and using wellness mama as a testing ground, and those tests worked really well and I started getting really burnt out on client services so I decided I'm gonna go on in and grow this thing that I started with her and you can really help a lot of people and being get to work together and just just built something bigger. And so when I went on growing wellness mama and that became a major website, major major platform, and Then there was a lot of tutorials that we had on there and how to make organic personal care products from home, because at the time we're kind of when she started doing that, we were broke and Wanted healthy products for our family and making products in the kitchen, and so when the audience really liked those products, but they were tired of making them themselves and so when you hear that story enough times, you realize that there's an opportunity for a business, and so from there, we launched wellness, which is a brand of organic personal care products based on those Creations that Katie had created in our kitchen so many years ago and watch that in 2020 so fast forward.

Seth Spears: 6:28

During COVID, we really grew apart and the marriage Ended and so we kind of we parted ways and I took over running wellness, she took over running wellness, mama.

Seth Spears: 6:39

And that's been my primary focus the past few years is growing this, this little baby brand of personal care products in the e-commerce space to to profitability and Just growing and molding that.

Seth Spears: 6:53

And then I also launched a brand and now through a equipment company with my brothers a couple of years ago called rewild gear, and so that was really to scratch my own itch.

Seth Spears: 7:02

I've always been super into the outdoors, into camping, hunting, backpacking and just spending as much time in nature as possible, and then, with my divorce, I've leaned into that a whole lot more, just spending more time in nature and figuring out who I am at my core and just really grounding and so that. So the company has really played into that and creating really high quality and minimalistic gear for the camping, hunting and backpacking space, and so that's been my focus the past few years. It's just been growing, growing companies in the e-commerce world and doing consulting for companies that are growing, and just with my background in content creation and SEO and social media and web design, and really just using those learning experiences and tools to Help companies that are on a mission to make better products that are better for you, better for the environment, or on a mission to do something bigger than just themselves. So that's kind of in the Trajectory in a nutshell, over the past decade.

Tina Smith: 8:01

Yeah, that's so amazing and just listening to your story I resonate with so much of it Spending time in the outdoors being healing, helping with mental health and Figuring out what's next in life when things don't go the way you thought they were going to. I have a lot of experience with that as well. Took a brief sabbatical at one point and Got on a bicycle, went on the road for two months in Europe across seven countries, just like, alright, figure this out, what's next, what am I doing?

Seth Spears: 8:34

We're all. Were you traveling during that time?

Tina Smith: 8:36

Oh gosh, I landed in Austria. I did so Austria, germany, the Netherlands, belgium, france, england. And I'm missing one. I can't Luxembourg.

Seth Spears: 8:51

That's incredible. So I actually studied in Austrian college. Oh, I have a strong affinity for for Austrian culture, and just everything being the foothills of the Alps is just amazing.

Tina Smith: 9:03

Amazing, yeah, and it was very healing at the time and helpful and figuring out, okay, what am I doing with my life now? I don't know if it was a midlife crisis or what, but it was a good time to get out there and just Feel what it feels like to not be in front of a screen all the time, but People are in front of screens all the time, which is one reason that we're trying to figure out. How do we help people find the products, the natural products, that they are searching for and that they really need in their lives, which sounds like you have a lot. It sounds like you made this beautiful pairing of you know figuring out things online with hey, I can create businesses out of things that I needed myself and Solving a problem that maybe you had. Tell me a little bit more about when you guys started wellness, mama. What was Maybe some key things that you did online that wasn't being done at the time so that you could rank higher and people could find you?

Seth Spears: 10:08

Great question. You know I'm a big picture thinker and I have the ability to spot patterns and trends and connect dots that a lot of people don't. So, for example, I would look at what other industries are doing and then bringing them over into the health space. So in a lot of the different niches that we can get into in different industries, we look at what everyone else is doing, and so we're very focused on what are my competitors doing or other people within the industry? And well, that's fine, you can do that. That's not very original, and so I always want to do things that are bigger and better and more original, more authentic than anyone else. So I would look at what people in the marketing space were doing, people in the outdoor space, people in other industries and not just health and wellness and then bring them into that space. So, for example, with from a marketing perspective, I looked at how can we optimize things best for SEO. So just look in. You know this was years ago, so a lot has changed over the years and the same tools and strategies don't work necessarily. But just looking at the topics that we're covering, how can we answer all those questions that someone might be answering? How can we be the Wikipedia of our industry? So if someone has a question about anything, I mean, wikipedia is obviously such a breadth of knowledge. So how can we answer all those questions and do that better than anyone else? And so that was kind of the strategy around it.

Seth Spears: 11:30

And then also started off in just building an audience building community, first of all, just by creating amazing, amazing quality content and then going out and did a lot of comment marketing. So, for example, there are other blogs and websites and forums and groups where people had questions and talking about health topics, and so one of the strategies was to just engage there, and not from a promotional or spammy point of view, but just engaging and being interested in what people were doing and asking questions and answering questions and providing resources and then, if it had sense, having a link back to the website so that people could learn more, or this is what we found helpful and even just like within the blogging community. You know you had something called a gravatar or an avatar so that it was assigned to your profile and you had, like, your website link. So if people could click on the comment that you left, they would link back to your profile and see the website that you had, and so that was one way of just getting people interested in coming back and learning more.

Seth Spears: 12:31

And then using social media, and obviously this has changed so much. Like organic reach isn't like it was. I mean, those were the good old days when you know you post something on a page and everybody that follows it would get a notification about it, as opposed to now it's pay to play. So some of those strategies don't work as well as they used to, but a lot of those things they're not duplicatable at scale and so bigger companies they weren't necessarily willing to do that.

Seth Spears: 12:56

And so that was a way to differentiate and separate out from what others are doing or just caring more. So back when we had started the thing, Katie was replying back to every email that would come through and just giving a damn. You know, caring more than anyone else, Because that's something that if you can separate yourself from your competitors by being more authentic, by going deeper, by just doing things that are more authentic to you, that's the way to stand out, Because people, they'll stick around and they will follow someone or a brand based on that message and showing that you really care and you're not just in it for the money or in it just to build something, grow it and sell it, but you're actually want to make a difference. I think that's one of the most important parts.

Tina Smith: 13:43

Yeah, that's what I find so encouraging about being in this community, because it seems for the most part now there are some nefarious players out there, but for the most part in the natural products industry, it is all about heart and soul. So what we try to bring to the table is hey, we want to help you actually make money out of this too. Sometimes it's so heart and soul that they forget that this is. They need to bring in some revenue as well.

Tina Smith: 14:11

But I love some of those strategies that you were talking about, and while it's not exactly that way and it's not exactly anymore, the algorithms have changed and different things have evolved, but this one to one communication is still important.

Tina Smith: 14:25

So finding these online communal places where people are hanging out, answering questions, replying to things online whether it's on your website or social media is a great way. Dms on Instagram are a great way to connect with your audience, or answering questions on platforms that people are just they built a community around a topic. You hop on there. You can answer questions on Reddit. It's a great place still. So there are a lot of these strategies that the essence of them remains the same. It's how is the tactics that have changed a little bit, but I think you're right. It's one way that helps you be unique and stand out in this crowded online space, where now the Amazons and Whole Foods and all those big box players of the world are coming into natural products, and so creating a relationship, even if it's online, is still a great way to grow your market.

Seth Spears: 15:30

Yeah, and there's also a lot of greenwashing within the industry that people say that they're getting in it for the right reasons and yet, maybe because they have investors, maybe because they have shareholders or stakeholders who are more interested in profiting than actually making a difference and being a change maker. I think that's one of the reasons why there's multiple reasons. So for Wild Nass, we have really leaned into the sustainability side. So, for example, I think one of the biggest issues that we're facing in the world today is pollution, is how our soil depletion, all the chemicals that are going into our water, our air, our soil these are major issues that people are starting to talk about more, but they're not realizing how the supply chains affect that. Single use plastics is a perfect example.

Seth Spears: 16:20

So we realized when we wanted to start the company that we have to do things differently. One of the ways to differentiate a product ingredients. Obviously, because I will put our products up against anyone's just from the ingredients and the quality and the efficacy of how well they work. However, what about our packaging? What about the supply chain? So, for example, our tubes, the tubes of toothpaste, our shampoo and conditioner we use a recycled sugarcane bioplastic that is compostable in either commercial composter or in some of the countertop composters that you see now, like the Lomi device. So our tubes you put those in one of those countertop composters. It turns into dirt overnight.

Seth Spears: 17:00

So that is something that no other company is doing. They're always talking about, oh, it's recyclable, yeah, but how much of that stuff is getting recycled, you know? And it's still using single use plastic, which is a problem. So this was one of the ways that we wanted to differentiate ourselves by being better for you, by what you're putting on your body, you're putting in your body, and for the environment. How are we affecting our planet, like just with everything that we're doing, our packaging, the compostable side, or if you can recycle it or reuse it. So I think anytime you can differentiate yourself and actually do better and not just for marketing, but actually because you care, because you really do give a damn and want to be better than what's out there I think that's so important and that has to align with your mission, your big why.

Tina Smith: 17:50

Yeah, it's so. Some of the things that you're talking about is this complete alignment with your values. So I know there are a lot of people out there that have a lot of heart and they'll bring it to the forefront in one lane and it makes a lot of sense. But what you're talking about is, at every point of that customer experience and product development, that you are wait, does this align? Does this align? Is there a way that we could do something different that aligns even more? So we like to think of the customer journey, especially online.

Tina Smith: 18:22

But if there's a true sense that you are really trying to create relationship with your customer from a retail store's perspective or all the way to B2B, if you're a manufacturer and you're trying to get independent retailers to have your products on their shelves, then look at every point of that customer journey and say, could I align this more to have a better relationship, to have a more targeted relationship, to have something that's more personalized for you, to have a better relationship with these people? As we're going and the same happens with all of the different values, your core values, as long as you've identified them, you can ask that question at every step of the way. I'd love that you guys brought that into your skincare products.

Seth Spears: 19:07

Yeah, you know, when it comes to natural products and things that you're using every day, subscriptions in the e-commerce space. They're big because it's recurring revenue and you need that. You want people to consume it and come back to purchase again. So, and you know, we're no different. However, one of the things we encourage our customers to do is not order every month. It's to order every three months, but order more, because then that's going to save packaging, shipping costs. It's going to be more economical for them and for us, so it's a win-win. A lot of companies they don't lean into that, but for us it just makes sense because we want to do what's best for everyone. It's got to be a win-win for all parties involved, and so I think any time that you can find those opportunities that might look different than what others are and just lean into that, it's going to be better for everybody.

Tina Smith: 19:56

Yeah, so that's taken that even one step further. So subscription models work really well and you know we talk to a lot of independent retail stores so they're grappling with how do we do this whole subscription model in our store or in our online platforms. But I love this idea of and you can do this with most supplements they're shelf stable for a period of time that you could do these quarterly pushes for. Hey, it's time for you to get your three months supply, and maybe there's something in that for the natural product stores or the manufacturers, especially if they're going B to C on that. Hey, because you're right, especially if you are looking towards sustainability or keeping that carbon footprint down, that makes a whole lot of sense. So if you're saying that's a value, this is one other way that you look at. Okay, does this align? Could we make it align better? Just another illustration that you guys were aligning everything with your values there.

Seth Spears: 20:58

Yeah, exactly, you know, I get really annoyed when I see companies, especially in the supplement space, that they'll sell you a product and then on the back end they're trying to sell you like 10 more bottles for a major discount or price and it's like, okay, great, you're getting a discount and nobody needs this many especially on our first time purchase because you don't know if you like it, don't know if it works for you, and you know supplement companies have really good margins the vast majority.

Seth Spears: 21:22

I mean there's some that don't compare to personal care products where we don't have the same margins as those do. So we have to be more careful with our marketing and how we're doing that. But yeah, but I think it's incongruent when you're trying to oversell someone that you know they don't need that many, that it just seems wasteful. And we live in such a mass consumer society and this instantaneous microwave culture of we want everything now or yesterday and so let's buy as much as we can and then just consume it. And I think we need to consume less, we need to save more and just look at how can we have less consumption and just get those things that we need. Purchase those things, but not just at all cost. Let's focus on quality over quantity.

Tina Smith: 22:11

Yeah.

Tina Smith: 22:11

Another thing that that brings to mind for me, seth, is when you're saying, hey, I'm not a first time purchase.

Tina Smith: 22:18

These bulk orders might not work or even be the best experience for the customer.

Tina Smith: 22:23

A lot of people who are new to natural products, supplements and that sort of thing, they're not sure if they really want to try this product and whether or not they'll fill a result from it after using it, and so I'm thinking of ways that you could sort of take down the risk for that product or service. And I do know a lot of manufacturers are like hey, if you're not, if you don't feel a difference when you use this product or supplement, or if you're not satisfied after a certain period of time, bring it back to the store, we'll replace it, like things like that, where you're taking care of the customer and reducing their risk helps them go ahead and make the decision to give something to try, and if they do enjoy it, that would be the opportunity. And again, it's this personalized marketing and messaging that comes into play when it's like hey, did you see results from this product? Did that work for you? And if the answer is yes, then okay, that might be the time to start a subscription or a bulk order.

Seth Spears: 23:26

Yeah, exactly, and you know the flip side of that and I try to look at both sides of every angle, you know, just to kind of understand and play devil's advocate. We also see abuse in there as well, where customers like they'll try to make a return, like, oh, I didn't enjoy it. Well, you use 95% of it. So what are you talking about? So it's a little bit disingenuous, you know, and there's bad apples, no matter what. But also realizing, just because someone else is doing something that is what I would consider an ethical, that doesn't mean that we need to change our strategy because of that, because we want to do what's right, no matter what.

Tina Smith: 23:57

Yeah, it's always that this happens with feedback to. We see, you know, one person complains about something and then you try to change everything to match that person. And the truth is that there are bad apples, there are people that are difficult to deal with, but the majority of the people that you're working with, if you cater to the people who are great customers and people that align with your values and don't do these nefarious activities trying to get money out of returns, if you cater to them and just keep in mind that that's the majority of the people that are going to be coming in and out of your store, and keep that positive mindset, I think that you know, yes, you're going to take some hits, but they won't be too overwhelming. And that bad customer feedback now, if it's over and over again, especially from your best clients, it's something to pay attention to. But we don't have to pay attention to every single bad comment that comes our way.

Seth Spears: 24:58

Yeah, you know something that I feel like happens a lot in the health space, especially the natural health space in particular. A lot of people get into it because they're trying to fix their own issues, their own allergies, food sensitivities you know, maybe it's weight loss, who knows and so because of that they think that everything can be an enemy. You know, like, take gluten, for example. You know gluten has been so just made to be a villain in so many ways. But I think in health it's the bio individuality of each person. You know we're all so different to our, our genetics, our, our biology, all of these things, and so what is good for one person isn't necessarily good for everyone else. It rarely is actually so.

Seth Spears: 25:44

For example, I'm Italian, I do fine with gluten. You know, like, I can eat wheat and grains and things all day and no problem. I don't just so great with corn and beans, you know, but for someone from, say, a Latin American culture, they do great with those. So you know, especially those that are in the natural health space paleo, etc. Keto they're gonna malign gluten and flour and wheat and bread and things like this. So but again, I think that's an example of trying to make a common enemy out of something that we have to realize that there's that individuality for each one and also taking a stand for what your brand is. So, example if you, if your audience is, has gluten sensitivity or celiac or something, then yeah, you kind of need to make gluten the enemy because for that person and for that audience it is, it is can be definitely for them or make them so sick. So in that instance you need to.

Seth Spears: 26:40

I think where we get into trouble is if we stop taking a stand for anything and just like oh anything goes, or this is good, that's good, whatever, and then you have no backbone, and then your brand is so wishy washy that you don't. You don't, don't amount to anything, you don't stand for anything. So I think that's important too.

Tina Smith: 26:59

Yeah, it just reminds me. You know, looking deeper into the science of any of these gluten, keto, paleo, especially nutrition we don't know as much as we claim to know, especially when it comes to the individuality. So one of the reasons I love doing what we do is because there's a path to have more personalized conversations and a consultative experience with the people that you serve, and this is all related to targeting sorry, segmenting your market into different needs or case studies, situations, use, cases where they might need something different than another segment of your audience, and really taking a personalized approach to how you're messaging. So maybe there is a slice of the pie where you need to talk about gluten as the enemy, but for other people they might have an entirely different issue that they're dealing with, and so no need to overwhelm them with that information and really work on serving them where they are, as they come to you.

Seth Spears: 28:10

Yeah, I definitely agree, and I think this is where AI gets really interesting, where we can analyze people's needs and who they are based on just that data, and maybe that's genetic testing, maybe that's understanding that bio individuality. And so, as opposed to just making a blanket claim, one of my biggest pet peeves in the natural health space, and especially in the food industry, is labeling something a superfood right. So we've seen that in so many cases and I'll give you a perfect example. So coconut oil. Coconut oil became all the rage, like in starting 2011, 2012, something like that. From a lot of the work that I've done over the years, especially on the wellness mom side, that helped to contribute to that. You know, wellness mama ranked number one for the organic term coconut oil for seven years, I think, eight years maybe, so a very long time.

Seth Spears: 29:00

We sold millions and millions of dollars worth of coconut oil, claiming it's a superfood. And while it can be, is it a superfood for every person? The answer is no. So if someone grew up like in the Pacific Islands or something we're used to, eating a lot of those types of healthy fats, coconut oil, and such great for them For someone that didn't, someone that grew up, say in Alaska or, you know, in different areas of the world where they're not used to it. That's not actually healthy for them. There's lots of examples of people developing an allergy or a sensitivity to it because of overconsumption, because their genetics they didn't support that Like. For me, I've never actually liked the smell of coconut oil or even the taste so much, even though we cook with it for a very long time. I'm Italian. Olive oil all day long, baby, I mean, I'll bathe in the stuff you know. So it's the bioindividuality of each person. I think we need to take into consideration so much more and stop saying that this is a, that there's a one size fits all in, that it's a superfood or superproduct that everyone needs, because the honest truth is there's not a perfect thing for every person, or like one thing that is a perfect fit for everyone, just because we are all so different. And so I think calling that out and for companies that are coming out with a product and stop trying to label it as the greatest thing ever, because that leads to overconsumption and, honestly, long term negative effects.

Seth Spears: 30:21

Essential oils are another great example of this. Essential oils became all the rage. It's like oh, you can use it for this. It'll cure cancer, you can eat it, you can drink it, you can do this. And it was like this new category. And so the amount of plants needed to extract an oil are so great. We're losing a lot of those and it's causing widespread destruction because they were never meant to be utilized in such such a concentrated capacity. And so, I think, different industries, they latch on, and then there's trend followers. You know, you have your trend setters and trend followers. People see a trend and then they want to go in and create a business around that, and in order for that to be viable long term, you have to build this category up even more so. And then, but what are the long term effects of that? What are the second order effects of that growth? And I think that's where we're not paying attention enough to see what potential destruction that could have.

Tina Smith: 31:14

Yeah, that brings us back to. I think you know some people are in it for the money, but if you really are in this because you're passionate about the health of people and where this can make a difference, it's so important to get to know who you're talking to and to make sure it's not the wrong people that you're trying to serve. You can call that out on your website and then your social media as well. I think this is part of that taking a stand for what you believe, because if you believe that your product can help people and it's shown results to do that, or a product that you carry in your store, then definitely promote it, but figure out who it's best for and let people know if it's not for them, because I really think this next generation of people that are looking for natural products are looking for transparency and people that they can believe in, and that's one way to outcompete the Amazon's of the world, because they are not going to be able to do that.

Tina Smith: 32:16

Customer reviews might be helpful with that, but there's not a consultant on Amazon right now. Ai might get us there eventually, but there's not a consultant on Amazon right now. That's going to help you find the right magnesium if you need a magnesium supplement, or let you know that, hey, you should test your magnesium levels and then dose to get to a certain result. But we know that people in this industry, especially the smaller companies, are nimble enough to be able to do this and to have conversations with our customers, and if you really believe in people's well-being, then finding out more about your customer is exactly the route to go, I think. Tell me more about wild gear and the growth that you've put into that. What are some tactics that you're using to promote your wild gear company?

Seth Spears: 33:09

Yeah, so for real wild gear and full transparency. It is definitely the fun side project that we have not reached profitability yet, so I am still learning and going into a new industry can be a challenge, and there were some strategic errors that I made when launching the company. For example, the way that WellNest grew. We already had a built-in audience from what we had done on the Wellness On the Site and then leveraging connections and other people in the space that could help promote and grow With free wild gear. This was a passion project where I wanted to create the highest quality gear for the outdoor space and really to scratch my own itch.

Seth Spears: 33:44

So the history for the company was my three brothers and I were sitting around a campfire, drinking bourbon and comparing knives and we grew up in Kentucky and loved camping and hunting and backpacking and just spending time in nature and we're all gear heads. We always want the best quality over quantity, but we always purchased lots of different ones to test out and see what we liked and try to find the perfect knife. So we're sitting around this campfire and just comparing knives and started the conversation of what would the perfect knife look like? If you were going to create it. What would you do differently? The ones you have or the ones you tested out and so we started just sketching out ideas. So that was over 10 years ago now, and then, when COVID came around, I had the realization that one of the things, with all the lockdowns, that people could still do was get into nature and go camping and spend more time. So it's a perfect time to launch a company.

Seth Spears: 34:34

However, what I didn't take into consideration was the fact that it's a lot easier to build something and grow something if you already have an audience to sell to and finding out what they want. So for Wild Nests, we had feedback and examples that people they wanted a natural toothpaste that worked really well, that the tutorials and recipes that we had over on Wild Nests, hollandcom, that people could test out and make themselves, but they got tired of making it themselves and wanted us just to sell it. So I didn't do that same strategy for wild gear. So that's definitely been a learning experience, and so that's something that we're really leaning into is how can we build more community? How can we engage people that are already in the outdoor space and that are looking for these types of products?

Seth Spears: 35:18

So, for example, we make knives and fire starters and backpacking, grills and camping utensils, and so there's and that's also across several different sub genres of the outdoor space. You know you've got hunting, you've got bushcraft, you've got survival, you've got hiking, you've got camping. So they're all generally sub sub niches within the greater outdoor space, and so I've learned a lot. Unfortunately, most of my greatest learnings have been what not to do. I think that's a lot of people. So you know we're still learning and growing and going from there.

Tina Smith: 35:54

That's so interesting to hear, because obviously you had a lot of success with wellness and wellness, mama, and then launching out to do a new thing. It just reminds me that past success does not indicate future success and that you really have to be aware of what you're launching into you. And a lot of the things that we find very successful for product manufacturers and for independent retailers alike is this network building this community first, and a network of people who are referring in and out of your store or for your products. And I think it just goes back to prove nature's done it best Always.

Tina Smith: 36:37

If we think about fungal networks and the soil and how they communicate to each other, hey, I need this resource, and then an impulse goes out and pulls the resource or finds it. You know, and I think we need the same thing in the business community. You need a community of people in your industry. You need a community of people, like you were talking about, who are not in your industry, so they can bring the new ideas to the table and help you find different ways of doing things, so you don't look just like the other guy. And then you need the community that you're developing with your customers and really listening, doing a lot of that customer, listening for those signals of what people want, versus just necessarily scratching your own itch. Scratching a niche is a great place to start, by the way, but it doesn't tell you everything about all types of people who might need or want to buy your product, pricing the type of gear that they want, that kind of thing.

Tina Smith: 37:34

So, that's a lesson for everyone, I think.

Seth Spears: 37:37

Yeah, I agree, and I love the example of the Mycelio networks because those are absolutely fascinating and like how they grow and work and how similar they are to the brain as well as far as those neural pathways and such. But yeah, you do bring up a really good point about having those different types of communities that you can learn from and pass on. With WellNess there was a pain point. You know people that they so our best selling product is our whitening toothpaste, so we have the best ingredients around. One of our differentiating factors is we use our active ingredients called hydroxyapatite, which is a naturally occurring mineral that we get from some mines in France. So we use a microhydroxyapatite, which is the smallest particle that is naturally available. Our competitors, who also use hydroxyapatite, they use nano, and so that is not a natural particle and we want to be as natural as possible, and so that's why we chose what we use, and there's different theories on which works better. All the studies that I've seen, micro is just as effective as nano. So we also don't use glycerin or fluoride or any of the other crap that a lot of the others use. So we're able to differentiate based on that, and there has been a pain point that customers have had, trying to find natural products that actually work.

Seth Spears: 38:50

Because, unfortunately, the personal care products that we've gone into no matter how naturally oriented someone is, what's either eating organic and you know they've switched out or they're purchasing the products that a lot of people often wouldn't switch would be toothpaste, shampoo and conditioner and deodorant, because those are those personal care products that you want to look good, you want to smell good, you want things to just work. But the natural side often they were not as effective as some of those conventional ones. So our goal was to create products that were more effective than the conventional alternatives, and so there was a pain point that we could speak to. So for Rewild Gear because this was scratching our own itch there wasn't a pain point that we were solving. It was more I'm a gear guy, I love camping gear and just having the best and just finding what works for me.

Seth Spears: 39:44

But often it's so individual, based on where you're having your outdoor adventures, at the type of gear that you need, based on that. So it wasn't necessarily a pain point like the personal care side was, and so that's something else to take into consideration when you're starting a company or when you're looking at the positioning and your brand messaging Where's the pain that someone has and how can you solve for that? So that's been a big lesson for me as well. And then someone how can we find those pain points that someone might be in and use some of those psychological triggers for our own marketing and messaging?

Tina Smith: 40:21

Yeah, 100%. We talk about that all the time. If you're not solving a problem, then you're going to have a problem from your business. So definitely find the pain point and I love that you just talked about those personal care products. My friends and I were just talking the other day like have you found a natural deodorant yet that works? So we might be coming to your site to take a look.

Seth Spears: 40:46

Well, yes, natural deodorant works pretty darn well.

Tina Smith: 40:49

All right. Well, I might be giving those away for Christmas to people just to see and have everyone try that out, but since it does work, this is the perfect time for us to promote like hey, give it a try, because that's definitely a pain point that I and my friends have been trying to solve, and I'm sure there's a few other people out there.

Seth Spears: 41:10

Great.

Tina Smith: 41:12

Well, I thank you so much, seth, for your time. We're sort of reaching the end of our time together, but we typically go through a list of questions that we ask every guest at the end of the show, and I appreciate all of your wisdom, and now we can just wrap this up with a few questions that we ask everyone, if that's all right with you.

Seth Spears: 41:31

Yeah, let's go.

Tina Smith: 41:32

All right. So to keep up and be ready for what's next in this industry, as you're working on wellness, what are you reading, who do you follow and what types of content are you consuming? Thank you.

Seth Spears: 41:49

I'm an avid podcast listener and so most of the podcasts that I consume there are a lot around personal development, around business, around marketing in big picture strategy and thinking. So if you're familiar with the entrepreneur operating system, I am definitely the visionary and not necessarily the integrator. That's why I enjoy partnering with others who can handle that integration side. So I listen to a lot of things. That helps spark my creativity so that I can think of new product ideas, new ways to market. So a lot of things around that. Within the natural health space I do a lot of networking and go to a lot of different events where I'm saying on top of things that are going on. So that's more in-person and not so much content consumption there, more in-person content than virtual, whether that's blogs or podcasts or books or things. But I just try to keep my thumb on the pulse of everything that's going on within the space.

Tina Smith: 42:42

Yeah, and you mentioned EOS, which I don't know if all of our listeners are familiar with it or not, but we are having a guest on the podcast later next year who's going to talk about implementing EOS in a natural product store. So stay tuned for that, because we love that operating system. It's super at helping you stay efficient and running well as a company.

Seth Spears: 43:06

Yeah, great.

Tina Smith: 43:07

What do you think most people in the natural products industry wish they could change about marketing natural products?

Seth Spears: 43:15

Customer acquisition, I believe, has been the challenge. There's so many copycats in the industry, where people that are just following trends and they see that a new product has come to prominence and so they see an opportunity, so they're just rushing to create it or white labeling something. So I think it depends on the company and what their focus is and what they're doing. For those that are really authentic in doing creating something that's new and innovative and really solving a problem within the industry, I think getting a clear message across and being very clear and focused on that, and just customer acquisition that is profitable, because often you're taking a loss on the first time and then, if the products are great, that can work, because on the back end you're going to get repeat buyers, depending on what the product is and it's consumable and things like that. Yeah, so I think I would say that customer acquisition and whether that's figuring out paid ads or organic traffic or affiliates or influencers, just having a clear path forward with that, because it's all changing so rapidly.

Tina Smith: 44:29

Yeah, and we talk a lot about understanding your customer lifetime value, like you were talking about. Is this a consumable product? Are people coming back again and again, so, and how much are they spending every time and how long do they stay? So kind of calculating that customer lifetime value so that you know how much you can invest on the front end, because you are likely to lose a little bit on that first purchase, or you're going to at least reduce your margin, but you want to know how much makes sense for you to do that, based on how long are they going to stay, how much are they going to spend, or does that margin look like over time?

Seth Spears: 45:07

Yeah, exactly.

Tina Smith: 45:08

So what's the single biggest decision you feel like has led to your success in this industry?

Seth Spears: 45:13

My formula for success has always been do the right things long enough, consistently. There's some caveats there. What are the right things? How long is long enough, and what does it mean to be consistent? If you can answer those questions for you and for your business, I think that's where success happens. And the other thing that I've paid attention to and realized within that framework is that if you can figure out what your skill set is, so what you're naturally going to, what you enjoy and where there's a need in the market, then that's where the magic lies. So it's a combination of your skill set, what you enjoy where they're in the market, and then doing the right things long enough consistently to meet those needs.

Tina Smith: 46:02

Yeah, and usually doing those right things is exponential. So sometimes you don't even realize when you're almost there, and then there's a tipping point and then everything sort of comes together.

Seth Spears: 46:14

So yeah it's easy to see that tipping point. It's easy to see that tipping point in hindsight, but when you're in it it's a lot harder too.

Tina Smith: 46:23

So therein lies the challenge. Yeah, 100% agree. What do you think is the biggest challenge for this industry in the next three to five years?

Seth Spears: 46:33

For companies that are just getting started, competition is really fierce and we're seeing so much copycatting going on. Amazon is obviously huge. They're the 100-pound gorilla in the room and anytime a new product is created or a company starts something and they sell on Amazon, Amazon has all that data and then they're going in and creating something very similar Now the Amazon brand. People will sometimes just purchase that because it's cheaper, it's whatever, but to me that's a commodification and I don't ever want to compete on a commodity. I want to differentiate with what I'm doing so that customers will continue to come back and purchase from me. So I think that's where brand building is so important. People do business with those that they know, like and trust, and so if you can differentiate yourself and create a brand, a message, a story that resonates so much, that that's how you continue to get customers.

Seth Spears: 47:33

So it's always interesting to me when companies they want to create something specifically for Amazon because they see that's where the biggest potential is in the market and yeah, well, that's true. I think long term they're doing themselves a disservice. And so because a brand is nothing more, it's a promise, it's the look, the feel, the taste, the smell, everything that is who you are as an organization, and so if you can lead with those things, and even if you're selling on Amazon or other marketplaces, that's fine, but bring them back into the fold, into your community, into your website whether that Shopify or WooCom or Sumit, Dento or whatever so that you can get their information and continue to market to them, to provide value and to show them why you're different than everyone else.

Tina Smith: 48:17

Yeah, and I think that's definitely a trend that we're seeing, especially with younger buyers, that they want to know who is making this product, that it's a real person, and so I think that's a clear way to have a competitive advantage in this digital space, especially when you're competing with bigger companies like Amazon.

Seth Spears: 48:37

Yeah, it's interesting. What I see a lot of people doing is they'll see a product and they'll instantly go to Amazon to buy it. For me, I do the opposite. If it's a company, I go to their website. I want to know who they are, what they're about, what their ingredient quality is, and all of that. And this came to fruition even more during COVID, because, with the supply chain issues and not being able to find products or get them anything that wasn't considered essential or they were going up to a high end price, I would go directly to a company's website because usually the shipping was quicker I mean because there was no longer the two-day shipping for prime numbers, and so that kind of lost the advantage and then I was usually getting a better price. I was having a direct relationship with that company and then I could track my purchases and everything better, and so I just enjoyed doing that more and I could also see what they're doing for their marketing, which I like.

Tina Smith: 49:22

Yeah, so I think that's a big trend as well. So what do you think that more people in this industry should try when it comes to marketing?

Seth Spears: 49:34

I think they should look at things that aren't being done Instead of looking what others are doing and trying to follow suit. Ask the question how can I do the opposite, how can I differentiate from everyone else out there to set myself apart so that I'm seen as, in the words of Seth Godin, a purple cow? How can I be so different, whether that's my product quality, my marketing, et cetera? But I think differentiation is the key 100% Low hanging fruit.

Tina Smith: 50:04

what things do you think would give most people, the natural products industry, the biggest win, or the quickest win in building their business?

Seth Spears: 50:13

Start with family and friends who already know you, like you and trust you. Hopefully, give out samples, let them try it, let them be your evangelist people that already have an incentive to help you because they're friends, they're family and they want to, and let it grow organically from there. So do pay dads you can still do organic and social, and I think you should but find those people who would be incentivized just because of who you are and let them help you and be your ambassadors and your evangelists so that it can spread by relief from there.

Tina Smith: 50:47

So, even if they're not starting a new product, I 100% agree Find your best customers who have built relationship with you over years and let them help you market this, because they will. There are referral things that you can put out there incentives, trials, tests that you can float with them, and that is an organic way to build your business, and people trust people they know. So if they're and also if you're talking to your best customers, then they're going to bring people like them to you. So it starts to build this whole momentum around a type of customer that you serve very well. I love that. Yes, I agree. So if people want to follow up with you, pick your brain about marketing natural products or just want to buy some of your products, where should they go to visit you?

Seth Spears: 51:40

Yeah, great question, Thank you. So a couple places you can go to wellnesscom W-E-L-L-N-E-S-S-E so wellness with an E on the end is my brand of organic personal care products, Rewildgearcom R-E-W-I-L-D Rewildgear so that's my website for my outdoor equipment company. I'm pretty active on Instagram, so at Spears Marketing there, and I do a lot on LinkedIn as well, so you can just look for Seth Spears on LinkedIn and you can just click on the link there as well.

Tina Smith: 52:12

Awesome Well, seth, it's been such a pleasure having you Such nuggets of wisdom for natural products producers or retailers, I think, and what they can do with marketing and building relationships and standing out in the crowded marketplace. So I really appreciate your time and that you are willing to join us on the podcast today. Thanks so much for listening to the Natural Products Marketer Podcast. We hope you found this episode to be super helpful and show notes for any of those valuable resources that we mentioned on today's episode and, before you go, we would love for you to give us a review, follow, like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify, youtube or wherever you're listening today, and make sure you join us for our next episode, where we give you more marketing tips so that you can reach more people and change more lives.