Micah Corrigan: 0:00

You know, when we're, when we're bringing in new brands, the first question that I ask is what's the map? The second question that I ask is what's the quality? And some people might think that that should be reversed. But if I'm selling the most miracle of miracle products and you know people can get it $30, $40, $50 cheaper on Amazon I'm not going to sell it.

Tina Smith: 0:25

Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer Podcast. I'm Tina.

Amanda Ballard: 0:29

And I'm Amanda and we're here to make marketing easier for natural products businesses so you can reach more people and change more lives. Hey guys, welcome back to the Natural Products Marketer Podcast. We are so excited to have two awesome retailers with us today Micah Corrigan and Chase Ballard. Welcome to the show, guys. Thanks for having me.

Amanda Ballard: 0:55

So we always like to start off with asking how you got into the industry, because most people don't grow up thinking this is what I want to do with my life, but maybe you're different. So, Micah, we'll start with you.

Micah Corrigan: 1:08

Yeah, so I started in Hawaii. So my parents had a health food store in Kailua, Hawaii, and we were there for well. My parents were there for like 18 years. I was there for about six or seven. We moved to Wisconsin. I never forgave them. I was there for about six or seven. We moved to Wisconsin. I never forgave them. I'm just kidding. But then we moved to Wisconsin. We had the health food store there. I've been in it basically my whole life and from there in 2020, I started a brand called Great Naturally Electrolytes and then I've been involved in the industry. Recently I'm on the board for the Positively Natural show. I'm also involved with Save Naturally, which is a frictionless coupon platform, and then we're also starting a Be Well Verified program as well, which we can get more into later. But yeah, I love this industry, I love the people in this industry, and anything that I can do to promote this industry is is is my passion.

Amanda Ballard: 2:07

So you're not busy at all.

Micah Corrigan: 2:09

No, no, I have tons of free time.

Amanda Ballard: 2:13

Chase, how about you?

Chase Ballard: 2:16

Um, I got started in the industry when I was 21 or so. Um, I was very unhealthy uh, unhealthy, the exact opposite of the picture of wellness and one of my family members, they got really sick and it kind of woke me up to start thinking about health. And so I started at GNC down the road because my best friend worked down there and, um, gnc was, uh, yeah, quite an experience. Um, it learned me to be, it taught me to be ethical and to sell good stuff and not crap. And um, that led me on a journey to find um nutrition world in Chattanooga, tennessee, where I joined with Ed there and it's been about seven, eight years and then then moved down to Florida to work here at Detweiler's and I've been in the industry I guess a total of 15-ish years now, maybe more.

Amanda Ballard: 3:13

Great. Well, I know that both of you are super passionate about this industry and seeing retailers not only survive but thrive, and I know you guys are doing that in the businesses that you guys run. So what are the things that you've done in your retail businesses in order to succeed, and what are some things that other retailers need to do and pivot to also be successful? Chase?

Chase Ballard: 3:40

Oh Lord, yeah, I mean, the biggest thing I would say that retailers need to do is they just need to need to reestablish themselves as the owner of their business. I think that's what I've been successful doing, even though I've never technically owned any of the stores I've worked for. I've always been just, you know, a debt while I'm the director of wellness. So I kind of get to run and I'm the product owner of wellness, if you will. But you know, at Nutrition World I was the general manager.

Chase Ballard: 4:11

But I think the big thing is a lot of retailers let outside forces control and dictate their how they run their business and they don't ask how they want to run their business or what their goals are and set out to achieve those.

Chase Ballard: 4:26

They let too many circumstances do that. And that's where I really found that you know, if you do the core principles right, by establishing yourself as the health authority in your town and staying true to your passions, you really can dictate how, how and what you want to do and who you want to be. And I see a lot of retailers kind of have shied away from that for whatever reason. So I'd say that's. I don't know if that exactly answers the questions, but that's one thing we've done, or I've helped us do, really well. We stand firm on our standards and our expectations of ethics and morals and have been able to do some things in industry due to that as well, by standing up and saying this isn't the way it needs to be done, and yeah, I'd say. I guess the answer to the question simply is we've had a backbone.

Amanda Ballard: 5:17

What would you add to that, Micah?

Micah Corrigan: 5:19

Yeah, I would say I would say specialize. So you know, I see. So, for example, you know, I mean I see there's like a different spectrum of retailers right there's, you know, food, drug mass, you know, which is all the way on like one side of the retail spectrum. And then there's, you know, doctor's offices, naturopathic doctors, holistic practitioners, you know, on the other side of the spectrum and you know, I think that it's even like the large natural chains that we're seeing they are kind of also moving towards more of the mass market side of things, where you know they're carrying a lot of more conventional grocery products and in the independent health food channel. I think that's also kind of like a hybrid, kind of in the middle, and I think that if they could specialize more, I think that's going to be a win for them down the road.

Micah Corrigan: 6:19

You know I see products being, you know I mean customers can get products, you know, basically anywhere now, and so I think if a store is trying to be everything, it's going to be extremely difficult for that store. So I would say dig your heels in and specialize as much as you can so that you know, comes down to the products. So one of the that I say to our team always is that we're looking for unique boutique and therapeutic products, just as an example. We're not looking for products that can be found everywhere. I think customers, when they come into our stores, they want to have that unique cutting edge, the newest products, the best products. But if it's just a generic commodity product that they can buy at Walmart or Target, there's not that specialty feeling anymore.

Micah Corrigan: 7:20

So that's where I would specialize in and then also including services would that's where I would specialize in and then also like including services. So, like, if you could include consulting work or or blood work or, um, you know, different types of, like testing services, I would include that as well. Um, and then you know, try, try, adaptive marketing. Uh, there's tons of different marketing um styles out there, save, naturally would be would be one of the things that a retailer could incorporate. But I think just trying different things out and trying them at a faster rate and seeing what works and just being open to new ideas.

Tina Smith: 7:58

I love hearing about all of that, Micah, and I've got so many questions for both of you actually. But if you're including services in your business, is there any sort of benchmark that makes sense for people Like this? Percentage of your revenue should go to services like blood work, consultations, anything like that.

Micah Corrigan: 8:22

I mean I would, I mean I would say that a lot of retailers aren't doing it. So I would just try, you know, starting just with one thing, and if you can't do it or if you don't have someone on staff, I would try partnering with a your local dietician in the area or a local nutritionist or a local naturopath in your area and then, just you know, try to partner with them and provide those services. Because that's I mean, we have customers coming in and you know they're looking for natural product minded medical doctors, they're looking for acupuncturists, they're looking for a good chiropractor recommendation. So you know customers are looking for, you know they're searching for these answers. And I think if you can just be more integrated in your community with other services that are in there, I think that's going to be a good long-term strategy. But it's also going to set you apart, because Walmart's not doing that, target's not doing that, walgreens isn't doing that. So you want to provide as much value to the customer as you possibly can.

Tina Smith: 9:27

Yeah, I like this referral approach, this practitioners inviting them into your shop, because I do think that we talk a lot about people becoming the health advocates and health consultants for the people in their community and there's no better way to do that than to be like, oh, you need this person, I know exactly who you need to talk to and being able to point them in the right direction. Any ideas other than you Google them on finding those people and how you sort of evaluate whether or not they're a fit for you in your store people and how you sort of evaluate whether or not they're a fit for you in your store.

Micah Corrigan: 10:08

I mean, I mean a lot of times, I mean the connections that we have. They, you know, have been customers. You know they're already in that, in that kind of mindset. So those are, I mean those are the people that you know we're looking for. I mean they're already, you know we're already connected with them. I would you know, I that you know we're looking for, I mean they're already, you know we're already connected with them. I would you know, I would you know, if you're in the store level and you don't have those current connections, I would try. You know, I don't know, making a sign, sending out a newsletter. You know something like that. You know looking, you know looking for a partnership like that. That's, that's just one idea. Looking for a partnership like that.

Chase Ballard: 10:46

That's, that's just one idea. One thing you can do I think that Nutrition World was doing is it was really good as they put together a gift basket, or even ask your vendors for gift baskets and take them. Take those around to practitioners and kind of have a personal letter in there and talk to them about what you do, and you'll usually gather feedback that way also.

Tina Smith: 11:07

Yeah, you know. Just another tactic that we've used before or made the recommendation around, doing that is and Micah, you kind of hinted at this like some of those practitioners are already coming into your store, which is great, but you also just have customers who use people like that. So I love the idea of putting the sign up, because you can get your own customers telling you no, this is the best chiropractor, or I believe in this person to do holistic medicine, because they don't always give me a prescription and they help me understand what I need from your store. So I think just asking your customers who they use or, hey, submit your favorite, you know that's always a good tactic as well.

Amanda Ballard: 11:51

Yeah, and I'd be interested to ask Chase, because you know, if anyone isn't familiar with Detweiler's they're a farmer's market with a wellness department. Versus Micah's store, it's more of a supplement store. They have some food and I would say that the vast majority of our listeners do kind of fall into this. 70 plus percent are supplements, but for those that aren't, I'm curious how do you have this consultative approach in a store that's more grocery centric, where people feel like, oh, this still makes sense for me to get my health and wellness advice from a store that's more grocery centric, where people feel like, oh, this still makes sense for me to get my health and wellness advice from a store that's not just a pill shop, so to speak?

Chase Ballard: 12:33

Yeah, it's tough because our store, each store, each of our four stores, has about 3000 to 5000 customers a day. So it's you can't have, you know, those long conversations with every customer. Now, we still make it a priority. We keep the floor staffed as best we can, but we kind of have what we term is like a health food store express. So you know, in a typical health food store a conversation may be five to 15 to 20 minutes. Well, we try and shave those 20 minute ones down into the eight minute range. And the biggest thing it really is just coming down to finding and hiring passionate staff that um, care about people. I mean literally, I don't even we don't even really look for much supplement knowledge when it comes to people. We can teach supplement knowledge, but we need people that are care about people and that are good at talking to people. That's kind of the main thing we look for in our our staff. If you have supplement knowledge, that's great, but really it's about just loving people and wanting to help people. But finding those people and then just letting them do some quick little nuggets is what we call them Basically. We just thought we're passing on health nuggets. We're not going to be sitting here going through a whole big spill with people. But we always want to keep you know if someone's coming in for something. Hey, what are you taking that for? What else are you already taking? What else are you already taking? So we try and ask those probing questions so we can see what else they're taking and then help them find what also could work well with them and kind of open that door to where they start trusting us and give us more information.

Chase Ballard: 14:15

And then the nice thing is we're more of a grocery store. It's a typical health food store. You see your customer once every four to six weeks. If you're lucky, you know sometimes they don't come back until you know every 90 days or so. If they buy in bulk At a grocery store, we get to see them every week. So it's kind of a luxury there is. We can kind of check in each week. Hey, how are you doing? Is that working for you, is it not? Do we need to bring it back? Do we need to switch it out? So we kind of use. We have some weaknesses because we can't spend that much time, because due to the volume of customers, but it is nice that we actually get to see them more frequently because we're kind of a neighborhood destination for them. So it's kind of a. It's a give and take, but it works out.

Tina Smith: 15:00

You know, chase, you said something earlier when Amanda was talking about what are some ways you've been successful, and I can't just leave it on the table. I'm sure people are like, wait, we want to hear more about this, but you said we have a backbone. If I were to sum it up, it's that we have a backbone, and so I would love to hear more of that, because it sort of weaves into what Micah was saying about being a specialty store with the unique boutique and therapeutic items. So I would love for you to say more about having a backbone. What has that looked like? And then what do you do as a result of figuring out hey, we're not going to stand for X, y or Z.

Chase Ballard: 15:47

Yeah, I mean, I think it's well. Basically, what we had done is, you know, we me and Ed were very pivotal and others it wasn't just us, but we were very pivotal in the map, map compliance, I guess, or whatever. But we basically said that if you don't have a map, if your company as the vendor, doesn't have a map policy that's enforced, then you're not coming into our stores. And at this time it was 2016, 2017, and map was very hit or miss. I'd say probably 30% of the brands out there the main big brands had a reliable map and 70% were considering it or not sure if they were going to. And it was a very scary time in the industry because Amazon was just destroying our pricing in the stores and it was very concerning. So we kind of came out there and said, hey, here's our map policy.

Chase Ballard: 16:46

Basically, we sent out these letters to all these companies saying here's our map policy. If you don't have a map that's enforced at 30 percent or better or you know, or less whatever, then you're not allowed in our stores. And then we gave them a deadline and a deadline. And I actually remember sitting down with one of the biggest manufacturers they, it was their like regional rep. I told him what we were doing. I said, hey, you have, you know, six weeks to get your map in line and if not, we're cutting you. And he laughed. I was like we're the number one brand in the industry, you can't cut us. We're like, well, okay. And then, okay, and you know, the deadline came and we, we uh, sent them a credit for I think it was like seven thousand dollars or something, all of our stock, um, or it was at least 70 of our stock, because we basically went through the entire night. I still remember it um vividly because it was a nightmare. We went through and we pulled off every product that didn't have a map policy and put them in baskets and put them in the back and basically did a credit memo and sent them to the companies. And not a week later I don't know if it wasn't the CEO, but it was one of the national sales rep flew down from that company and I think a month later we were flying up to their company to meet with the CEO and stuff like that, to talk about map policy.

Chase Ballard: 18:09

So we were just a store, I mean a very successful store. I mean, you know, we were definitely. We were definitely a good store but just a single store. That kind of prodded this movement, if you will, because we started with Soho. Actually, I think I have one of the books there's very remaining but uh, yeah, I have like three left. But uh, with soho we did a little book thing. It's like it was kind of a panic thing that amanda actually wrote because, lord knows, I would not be able to do this I'm just a writer.

Chase Ballard: 18:39

but uh, yeah, I just I remember sitting down and she recorded me talking and blabbing. But anyways, we, uh, yeah, we had we went with soho doing road shows and, um, we needed something to hand out to people because it was a lot of information. And then we did that um and that little book kind of circulated around the industry real quick and a lot of people um latched on to some of the ideas in it and a lot of, I think it it spooked a lot of vendors, or actually didn't spook them and woke them up. I think to see, this is actually a serious issue and we need to decide where we want to be. Do we want to support the independence or do we want to support the just be in this race with Amazon and all these other counterfeit brands? And so a lot of good brands joined the independent, the independent channel, I think, or partnered with it, and I don't think brands get enough credit for that because they're.

Chase Ballard: 19:35

That was a tough decision for a number of brands. I know a lot of brands that talked to us that said they had to cut, you know, two million dollars in POs because those weren't, they were not map compliant, and you know a lot of brands don't get the credit for kind of ponying up and saying, hey, no, we're not going to stand for this. And I think I'm very passionate about helping retailers improve, because I think the ball is now in the retailer's court, because I think the brands, at least during that time frame, said, hey, we're committed to this industry. Now it's on us to show them why they should stay committed. Now, recently, we have some issues with mass market and kind of blending the line between mass market and and, and honestly, I think we start we have to be careful not to point fingers at the brands again and say, hey, why are you doing this?

Chase Ballard: 20:36

I think we always have to step back and ask why are they doing this? Why are they thinking about this? And yeah, there's greed involved in some things, but some of these brands are just worried about survivability and, honestly, in my opinion, the independent channel is not healthy and that's why I'm passionate about helping it get healthy and that's I love what you guys are doing at Natural Products. Marketer is trying to help retailers and brands, but this channel has to stay healthy. Guys are doing at natural products. Marketer is trying to help retailers and brands, but this, this channel has to stay healthy, otherwise we can't blame these brands for considering going into mass market, because they have to make money too, and so, yeah, I think there's. I'm not saying it's completely okay, and you know, trust me, I'm I. I give them a very hard time whenever I see stuff in mass market, but I try to understand their, their situation as well.

Amanda Ballard: 21:22

So yeah, yeah, and I'd love to hear Micah's perspective on this, because I know you have a similar philosophy with, you know, map pricing and all of that. But also, as someone who's you know, recently started a manufacturing company and still having the retail store, like, what are you seeing from both sides of the coin? Now, you know, what can retailers be doing to support these brands that are, you know, trying to stay dedicated to the independent channel in spite of its flaws? But then also, you know, do we blame manufacturers that have gone a little bit more mass? Like is what's the appeal? Why do you think that they would do something like that?

Micah Corrigan: 22:10

Well, I mean, I think. I mean, I think the reason why brands are kind of leaving the channel is just because they're going out of business. They're following the money. I mean that's, you know what's happening? Um, so they are. They're already saturated in all of the health food stores. Um, but health food stores aren't growing at like an exponential rate. What is growing is emerging markets. Um, a lot of, like e-tailers are growing. The mass market channel is growing, especially as consumers are becoming more and more aware of natural products. A lot of these mass market retailers, you know, want to capitalize on that, bring those brands in and, you know, sell them to their customers. I mean, that's essentially what's going on. Is they're just following the money? I mean, that's where the growth is. So it's very hard to kind of blame them, because that's where the growth is and there's no. So, however, a lot of these brands are, you know, they've already won their legacy brands. They're saturated in every single health food store and so now they're deciding where to go to, which is an important decision that they have to make. How fast are they going to expand? What markets are they going to expand to? These are all questions that they have to figure out.

Micah Corrigan: 23:28

I have seen it, I think we've all seen it, when many brands try to go into some of these large mass markets and it doesn't end well. And that's because in my, in my opinion, the, the health food stores, that's where, that's where the growth engine is, that is where innovation starts, that's where education is, that's where specialty is. I think what we're seeing is a lot of new brands coming onto the market and they're seeing this outflux of of legacy brands going into mass markets. And this is kind of where I'm coming in and I'm perfectly. I want to partner with the retail stores. I want to partner with the independent channel as a brand. I think many new brands coming out, many innovative brands, are also seeing that and they're happy to partner with the, with the independent retailers.

Micah Corrigan: 24:30

So every single time a here's another, here's kind of another flip side of that too Every single time a brand is on a retail shelf, that is a form of advertisement and it's a little tiny billboard for your brand, for your product on the shelf. And I think you know, I think a lot of brands know that, but many brands maybe don't publicly value it as much. And so every single time you know you're on the shelf or on an independent shelf. That is an opportunity for you know the um, the retail associate to you know, explain about the brand, explain about the product, um, and it leaves an open conversation for you know what other products the brand carries. I mean, that's where, that's where the marketing is, that's where the education is, that's the marketing is, that's where the education is.

Micah Corrigan: 25:24

And so when brands leave that and they go full on food, drug mass, what I'm curious about is how are they going to launch new products? I mean, what do you do? Do you just try to go to a big box store and say, hey, I got these new products, can I get a $2 million PO? And normally the big box retailers are like, well, what's the spins data? Where's the proof of concept? Oh, sorry, we don't have that, we left that channel. Can you buy into it? So I think it's just a dangerous road if they go down that road.

Micah Corrigan: 25:55

So, I think a lot of them are trying to navigate. How do they still keep their foot in the door in the health food stores while also trying to grow into mass market? But as a retailer, you have the power to promote what you want. And this is just the last little part of this, too, is the retailer has the power to promote what they want. So you don't necessarily have to flip the light switch off on many of these legacy brands Of course not. You build that demand for the last 10, 20 years. People are used to that product. But I think it would be very prudent for the retailer to look at new brands and new offerings and new innovative formulas, still keeping some of that legacy stuff, but keeping in mind that the legacy is going into other markets, so it's not necessarily going to be a long-term partnership.

Chase Ballard: 26:41

And that's that's kind of. I'm having an argument right now with a very big brand in the industry. That's kind of sharing and trying to figure out what they want to do and they've kind of said we're committed to the independence over and over and over. That's what their mouth is saying, but their actions are starting to do different things and that's the thing that they have to be careful with and that's what I've been telling the leadership there is like you have to be very careful with this because some actions you're making you may not think they're a big deal, but the way the independent channel sees this is a colossal issue. You know, we're okay to an extent with you having a facing or two in a target, like okay if it's the same price or if we have a better price. Or we're okay to an extent with you having a facing or two in a in a target, like okay if it's the same price or if we have a better price or we're on promotion. Usually we're not going to lose our minds. You know we don't love it. It's kind of like eh, come on, why are you doing this? Are we not good enough? Type thing. But okay, I get it. It's, you know target, whatever I get it. But when you start doing promotions there, you start creating exclusive SKUs or you start leaning into these type things and showing more loyalty not loyalty, but more favoritism to the mass market or start even doing some of the things that you, the line starts to be drawn.

Chase Ballard: 27:59

And that's where brands need to be very, very, very careful with that. They need to be very careful with every step they take, because I think the whole industry, the whole independent channel, is weary of creating another, you know, another garden. We're weary of letting that happen again. And so I think everybody's on guard to kind of. I'm seeing a lot more retailers actually stand up and say, hey, no, we're not standing for this and see some standards I think are even extreme, but I'm happy for them. Like you know, that's where I went back to the beginning of, like you own your store. So like, if you think that's what's best for your business, do that. So I do see more retailers standing up and saying no, but we also on the flip side.

Chase Ballard: 28:43

The other thing I'm passionate about is that on the flip side, we have to say yes to becoming and staying the influencer in our neighborhood, the incubator as well, because that's what our intrigue is Like if you're not the influencer in your neighborhood and and I like the word should be influencer, and I used to say health advocate in your neighborhood. But it's really the reason brands are kind of freaking out right now is the whole influencer craze, like health food stores used to be the influencer. That's who we were. That's why people came to see us. Well, now you don't need that. We need to remind people, especially our communities, why we are the influencer for health in our community and to trust us. But we need to focus on that and remind the retailer, the brands, why they need us, because it is a symbiotic relationship.

Chase Ballard: 29:35

Every brand that's gone mass and has made the independent channel upset has gone as a shell of its former self. I mean, it just happens. So, as a brand, they have to be very careful with how they navigate this water too, because I have seen some brands successfully play a little in mass and some of us haven't gotten too mad yet. But it's a very fine line and I have to be very careful with that.

Tina Smith: 30:02

Yes, it kind of brings me back to Michael, what you were talking about. Like, you want to find these specialty products that work. They can bring them into your store and the segue here is moving from okay, there are brands where you're getting a little bit wary of them as a store because they don't match your philosophy anymore or they're doing things to undercut the channel that you've helped them create. So how do you find those products that are going to be the next great products for the independent channel and for your consumers? And then how do you start switching? So you know, chase, you talked about Nutrition World just pulling product off the shelf and giving a big credit back to the manufacturer. But that is from our discussions with retailers. That is a different approach. That's a lot more scary than maybe what they're willing to commit to.

Chase Ballard: 31:04

Well, let me answer that real quick. I don't know if that was directed towards Mike or not, but I'm going to hop in when you realize the key here, because I think that question is actually maybe phrased wrong. The key is, and what I realized, the light bulb came on for me during that transition. At Nutrition World we cut. At this time it was the hottest item in the world. It was the Natural Vitality. I think that's the name of it Calm. I haven't sold it in years so I don't remember what it's called. I think it's Natural Vitality. It was the hottest thing.

Chase Ballard: 31:40

Everybody was you have to call it magnesium. I mean, we were selling tons of it but they had no map. I don't even know if they still have a map. I think they're owned by Clorox now, but I don't know. But anyways, we could literally buy it cheaper on Amazon than we were getting it from distribution and that was probably the one I was the most worried about cutting. I was like this is going to suck, we're going to get in trouble. But we transitioned over to Blue Bonnets called Magnesium had the same name.

Chase Ballard: 32:09

It was an easy transition and that's when the light bulb flipped for me and I actually understood the power good retailers have, and that is we put a sign up, hey, and we made sure not to not to disparage natural vitality is quality, because we we want to stand for quality. We've carried, we carried the brand for years. We're not going to say, oh, it's all of a sudden crap product. We said, hey, we don't see it eye to eye business wise anymore. They're just, they have different priorities that don't, don't, don't support our business. Um, we've got this other brand that we feel is just as good, if not better. Um, here's, you know, here's a 10 discount on it. Um, it's this, or you know, it may be even cheaper. And um, yeah, this just supports our business better. And so people will be like, oh, you don't have calm, is this just as good? And you like it better? Yeah, all right, perfect. And they just grab that and go. So, just seeing, I think we maybe had five to three percent of customers that would stop and actually go buy calm somewhere else. But nothing, like I thought it was. I thought we were going to be getting laughed at by not having this one thing people wanted, but that's what I learned is a good retailer that is, that influencer in their community or that influencer to that customer. They want what you recommend, they trust you, you're their influencer, so they're coming to you.

Chase Ballard: 33:38

It's not about the product you have, so say you're trying to get rid of you know, um, anything. I mean we could say we're trying to get rid of liquid IV, just to throw my talk about my gear. Bring in, bring in great, but really bring in great. Naturally, stand behind it, do it, do a display of it, sample it. I guarantee you, guarantee you, it'll be a top seller. But it's because of you. It's not really because any of the products. It's because of you and people trust you. So it's that's.

Chase Ballard: 34:13

You can create any and that's what I tell these brands when I argue with them. I can find another greens, I can find another. I can find another greens. I can find another collagen, I can find another vegan protein. I don't need you. Yeah, it's nice to have you and I like partnering with you. I don't need you. Now, again, the key is you have to be the influencer in your community. If you're not the influencer in your community and people do just come to you because you're just convenient, yeah, don't do that, don't do that. But if you're the influence in your community and people come to you and they trust you and you have good pricing and they they trust you with all their health things. They're going to switch if you say switch Anyway, sorry.

Tina Smith: 34:53

No, that's great. I mean, I heard several things there too, and I imagine you guys had blue bonnet products in the store at the time already. They weren't a new vendor, were they?

Chase Ballard: 35:04

Right, no, they were not.

Tina Smith: 35:05

So again, there are so many like psychological things that were going on there. First, you guys were the influencers in the community and you were directing them to a different product. The product was already familiar. They had, at least peripherally, seen the brand name on the shelves behind you. So you weren't like here's a brand new thing you've never seen before.

Tina Smith: 35:25

So there's familiarity that was built there and you guys explained, like you communicated what was happening and didn't just pull the rug out from under people and then make them ask questions about it so that it seems a little shady versus being really transparent about what's going on and what you're doing. So a lot of things that you guys just did right intuitively, around changing out the brands. But okay, here's another question and this is maybe where I was going initially, micah, but in the end wanted to get to that point, chase, about this brand conversion. But, micah, how do you find those good partners? How are you vetting them to figure out? Okay, this is the next person that is offering, or manufacturer that's offering, a good product for the customers, one that you can believe in. They're going to support the industry, at least for the time being. It's always a relationship and you get to choose to get in or out. But um, how do you know they're the right partner?

Micah Corrigan: 36:44

answer with be well verified, um, and so be well verified will be, um, you know, kind of that resource for stores to find those answers. You know, uh, the map conversation, the quality conversation, the innovation, uh, the support, the promotions, the margins, uh, those are all factors that you know I take, you know, into account. Chase takes into account, chase is also helping with Be Well Verified, and so you know there's the map is a huge thing. Also, just getting involved with I mean I read Vitamin Retailer, going to trade shows, you know having good relationships with your you know with your sales reps and brokers.

Micah Corrigan: 37:16

I mean the information is, you know, having good relationships with your, you know, with your sales reps and brokers. I mean the information is at your fingertips. But being being open to them as well, like you know a lot of, a lot of stores, you know sometimes they just say like, oh, I have this calendar, you know this, you know. You know I'm not going to bring it in yet, which is fine, or they're not bringing in any new products. But just being open to you know when there, I guarantee you, there's brands that are trying to like reach out to to the stores and just being open to that as well, so I'm not sure if that totally answered your question, tina.

Tina Smith: 37:52

Yeah, I mean, I think there are these criteria that you can go down to evaluate these manufacturers before they even come in, and you can ask the right questions while you're vetting them to both make sure they've got a great formulation that you can trust, but also that they're going to be good for your business. It's one of the things that we're looking at constantly when we're looking at inventory and product mixes and you're going, oh my gosh, this entire brand of SKUs is around a 20 something percent margin in their supplements. What is happening and that is a legit thing that we've just found in one of our reviews of product inventory. So it's the kind of thing that if you're making a checklist for yourselves, if you're listening to this conversation and you're starting to make a checklist for yourselves, make sure you're finding a product that's not just good for the customer that's always a top priority but it's also got to be good for your business and someone that is not going to undercut you in the market, so you can't find it cheaper on Amazon, cheaper than even you can buy at wholesale prices. I mean, these are the kinds of standards, just to have a little checklist for yourself, that you're going okay, I can trust these people and put a matrix together, because some of the things that we talk about are like hey, do they have trainers that are willing to come train your staff, or at least online training that you can point people to? Will they be able to help you with educational materials for your customers?

Tina Smith: 39:22

As you're changing things out and I will tell you that not all brands that are good and end up being good partners have all these things but if you make yourself a matrix and you're sort of weighting each of these items on it, you're like, oh, this one's better than that one and you start putting things together. I think Chase at one's better than that one and you start putting things together. I think, chase, at one point you had a thing where it was like all right, you guys are a level, you guys are B. Hey, you guys just slipped down to a C rating and then the manufacturers are calling you going wait, how did I get to be a C?

Chase Ballard: 39:55

Yeah, no, and that's what I was going to say too of if. If there is a brand out there there you like and they don't have that conversation, you'll be shocked. But have the conversation and hold your standards and say, hey, here's what we need. But if it's a brand you like and you say, hey, I love your product, I love your quality, but I really need X, y and Z, don't just look at it from the outside and be like, oh, we can't partner, you'd be shocked. Hey, you can help educate that brand and enforce the mission of the independent channel as well and educate them by saying, hey, we want to bring you in, but here's.

Chase Ballard: 40:28

You know you might be that one straw that breaks the camel back, but you know it was been thinking about Matt for a while and you know you're right, we need to do it. You'd be shocked that that might, you might be what they need to hear, but you'd be shocked that you know you may get that discount you wanted, that you didn't think you were going to get. You may get the co-op you thought you weren't going to get. So I mean, always have that conversation of something you think is really good for your customers. At least have the conversation, because you'll be shocked to see what you can actually get.

Amanda Ballard: 40:55

Well and the other thing too is you know you might think, well, I'm just one retailer, I'm just talking to my sales rep. What power do they have? And you'd be shocked at the amount of people that will actually take that to their higher up and be like, hey, this store says like we're a C grade, what the heck? We can't, we can't stand for that. And things can change even just through one retailer having one conversation with a sales rep. So don't undervalue your voice.

Micah Corrigan: 41:24

You know, when we're bringing in new brands, the first question that I ask is what's the map? The second question that I ask is what's the quality? And some people might think that that should be reversed. But if I'm selling the most miracle of miracle products and people can get it $30, $40, $50 cheaper on Amazon, I'm not going to sell it. I think it's just going to leave a bad taste in our customer's mouth and we're going to look bad. It's going to ruin our reputation and I'll just encourage them and be like hey, I think it's a great product, but you just have to buy it elsewhere. I just can't carry it.

Micah Corrigan: 41:59

We have educated staff and we have to pay them. We have to pay for the convenient locations that are in this area. So if you value you know the services here, if you value the convenient locations, we're going to make sure that we have an affordable price, a fair price. But you know, you know we still have to like keep this going here, you know, but, uh, you know, you know we still have to like keep this going here, you know. Otherwise, you know we could just, you know, close up shop um, tomorrow. You know if that would be a better thing for our community. But I don't think that is so. The first question is always map Um, and then the second question is like you know, the innovation, the formula, high quality Um. My manager told me that she's, she's, you know she's going to kill me. If I like, bring in another magnesium product. So I don't know how that's going to end I can't stop.

Micah Corrigan: 42:48

It's a bad addiction do you really need 50 varieties? That's the question.

Chase Ballard: 42:55

Well, maybe but this one, this one's threonate and citrate and bisglycinate.

Tina Smith: 43:03

Tell me you're a natural products retailer without telling me you're a natural products retailer.

Micah Corrigan: 43:09

But this one's like a zomal change.

Tina Smith: 43:10

You know all 18 formulations of magnesium and what they do for you.

Chase Ballard: 43:16

Yeah, but Micah's right, do not. The biggest advice I would tell every retailer, the first biggest, one of the biggest pieces of advice other than make sure you're the influence in your community is do not carry a brand that makes you look bad. Don't carry it. You cannot carry a brand that makes you look bad. Just plain and simple.

Amanda Ballard: 43:35

Well, and also I was going to say you know brands that won't make you look bad, but like, don't do it to yourself either.

Chase Ballard: 43:43

Right.

Amanda Ballard: 43:44

You know, there are brands that allow you to be super competitive. With them and just making the choice to be competitive because you can still have a really good margin In spite of them having, you know, a 20, 30% map, you can still compete too.

Tina Smith: 44:06

Yeah, the other thing. I was thinking around that, as you guys were talking as um, this idea of an influencer, and Chase, I like that um parallel because, you're right, there are so many brands that are going online, some of them online exclusively because they just can't compete in a retail setting, and we can talk for hours about why that might be, but or they've just chosen not to, and one of the things that they do is they buy the time of the influencer. So I'm just curious yes, there are things that you can do online to be an online influencer, but in your communities, if it's not online, then what does being an influencer look like? Because online it can look like okay, you're posting every day on social media, you're having lives where you're answering questions, you have backstory where you've already been, where people are and you're trying to take them to. Hey, I got better. So here's how, here's the plan.

Chase Ballard: 45:07

What does that look like in a store setting versus online? If you're asking me, I would say to hire a company called Natural Products Marketer and they will help you become the influencer in your neighborhood.

Amanda Ballard: 45:15

All right, not sponsored.

Chase Ballard: 45:18

But no, I honestly don't know. I've actually had the one thing. I don't have all the answers, I don't admit to I'm not the smartest guy in the room at all, but I've been very blessed too with the retailers I've worked with. You know Ed had Ed had had and still has created such a great icon with Nutrition World in Chattanooga. They were already very successful when I got there and and he was already the influencer. So I've never had to become help someone become an influencer. Now we helped I helped be a part of getting his podcast going and helping do some of those type things and rebranding and marketing and their website launch and some of the behind the scenes stuff. But Ed was always kind of that. He was already the community influencer and so that's just natural to him. So I've never had to do that part. And then DebtWilers we just have. I mean, we have 5,000 customers a day. I don't, we don't. People are here, we don't have to go out and get people. So I've never really had to overcome that obstacle.

Chase Ballard: 46:24

Honestly, I don't know, but I would. What I would do if it was me personally is I would find my key differences. And, micah, maybe I'll answer this question quicker or I'll go quicker, but I would find my key differences. If you haven't read the book good to great, read the book good to great. You have to. If you own a business, read it. Um, but it talks about the hedgehog concept. But basically, what are your key differences versus your competition? Find those, shout those from the rooftop and then tell your story and, using some sort of marketing tactic somehow, that's what I would say Um, stand on quality, stand on pricing, stand on your story and stand on um. You know, just yeah, whatever your experience is that you're passionate about. So that's what I would do.

Micah Corrigan: 47:12

And I think the good to great too is like, I mean, it's kind of like specializing, like find out, you can't be everything, but specialize, you know, because you know, know what you're good at and then just really, you know, go all in on that. I know you know what Ed would say too is, like, you know, be the expert in your field. And so people are coming to the health food store and they are looking for solutions to problems. And you know, definitely a hundred percent, we're in a people business and we just happen to sell vitamins. Uh, but you know you have to. You know people are looking for I have joint problems, I have heart problems, I have, you know, blood pressure issues um, perfect opportunity to show them the therapeutic products that you carry. And so you know you can't.

Micah Corrigan: 47:59

You know this is what I mean by unique, boutique and therapeutic. Like, unique, it has to be, um, you know it has to be innovative, it has to be. You know it just can't be like the 51st magnesium that you're bringing in, just a commodity item. Um, boutique, it's a benefit if it's not sold everywhere. Um, you know people have to come to you to buy it.

Micah Corrigan: 48:18

And then, therapeutic, it has to be well-dosed. It has to help people. It has to not be a kitchen sink, because when people you know, when their wallets are getting tight, when people are cutting their budget, they're not going to cut the products that are actually helping them, they're over, feel a difference. And so when you sell a product at the health food store and you really help that customer and they come back, you know 30 days, 60, I'm like, oh my gosh, that protocol that you gave me, like that product that you gave me, that just helped me, you know so immensely. That word of mouth is they're going to tell their friends, they're going to tell their family members, they're going to come in and they're not going to get that type of service from maybe more of a traditional influencer. Maybe I'm talking out of turn here, but maybe they're entertaining kind of the traditional influencer. Sure, nothing wrong with that, I love entertainment. But they earn their trust and you have to earn your trust.

Micah Corrigan: 49:14

You have to earn your customers' trust, and that is with selling therapeutic products that actually help people. You can't just be selling. This is kind of what I'm afraid of. Where everything's going is a lot of these legacy companies. They started out in the health food store. They had the therapeutic product the way that the manufacturer intended it, and now this big box retailer is looking at those spins numbers. They want those moolulu numbers to go up and it's just too high of a price. They know that their customer is not going to pay $30 for that product or $40 for that product. They'll pay $10. How do you get to $10? Well, you got to cut some corners.

Micah Corrigan: 49:54

Easiest way to do it would be cutting the potencies down, using cheaper ingredients and then maybe cutting the servings down. But the marketing is the same, you know, and so you know it's very frustrating when I'll see some of these products at a big box store and it looks like the same. It's the same product. On the front it looks almost identical, and then on the back it's like a different formula. It's different servings, potency. The average consumer is not going to pick up on that, but then they'll remember why did I go to that health food store? That was, like you know, 50% more. Why was that 30 bucks and it's $15 here? Why is that? And so that's also not a very good long-term strategy, which kind of goes back to what Chase was saying Don't carry products that make you look bad, because that's going to be an ever ongoing battle for that retailer.

Amanda Ballard: 50:47

Well, it was interesting. I was having a conversation just this morning with an industry friend and we were talking about how a lot of these products that have been created to go direct to consumer they're choosing the lower quality ingredients and they're still pricing them pretty outrageously, in my opinion, because they're basically just padding their marketing budget so they can actually get their products to as many eyeballs as they can. But if you're an influencer in the typical sense of the word, you know talking about products on Instagram. No one cares that it's KSM 66 ashwagandha that's like out of their vocabulary. You're never going to communicate that, so they don't put that in the product. But we all know that that's the superior form of ashwagandha and that's what you're going to find in the health food store. So it's like you have to again differentiate yourself with those high quality products and be able to effectively communicate why this product that you carry on your shelves is way better than this direct to consumer brand that you found for half price on amazon, cause there's probably a reason for that.

Chase Ballard: 51:59

Yeah, every, every moment of an owner's day, or, uh, if you own a health food store should be how can I, how can I remind people why they shop with me or how can I? That's really your entire goal of how can I make them remember or know why they shop with us versus someone else. Like that. It comes down to experience, and experience is a big word and a big umbrella term, but it could be. You know, they, they, they, they. It's a warm, inviting feeling in the store. We remind them of our quality.

Chase Ballard: 52:35

We talk about, you know, we talk about how AG one is very overpriced and not worth it. We talk about how these brands out there you know there's reasons we don't carry certain things. There's reason why we we do educate on the certain ingredients, but basically it's everything you do should be repositioned of making that customer loyal to you and not only that, but making them ambassadors for you to where they're going out in their community and sharing your gospel message of whatever you stand for. And I guess you know the big thing is look at yourself in the mirror and what do you stand for. That's where I started out saying have a backbone, like don't look at AG1 and be like God, it's selling so well, I need to bring it in. Let's just buy it at a bulk discount and let's just resell it at the price that's what people want. Let's get it in.

Chase Ballard: 53:24

It's like no, like, have your greens, that you think is best and and make a sign. I mean, we made a sign. I don't know where it's at. Yeah, I got one here. I was tired. I was tired of hearing about AG1, so I made a little thingy or Amanda made it for me, but you know that was AG1 and Bloom, because I was tired of hearing about that. And then Green Vibrance and Ancient talks about different things and that's posted in our greens. It's just like just talk about what you have and what's special about it.

Tina Smith: 53:54

Wait, do you guys know each other?

Chase Ballard: 53:58

We've met a few times.

Tina Smith: 54:05

I like that. I like that idea like if you have a chart right there, uh, showing like this, this has this ingredient and it this doesn't, it's very helpful for like a first look I'll be honest, like I don't know how Mike feels, but when Mike was talking about being specialty, in my opinion, this industry is not hard.

Chase Ballard: 54:25

If people have lost customers or something has happened. I think it's the retailer needs to look at their self in the mirror and ask themselves are we focused on what we're passionate? Are we being fair to the customer? Are we treating the customer like we want to be treated, with pricing, with product quality, with these things and um, and maybe it's a time to look in the mirror and really refocus on those things Because, honestly, if you're being honest with your customers, with pricing and quality and the right products, and you're caring about your customers, they're not going to leave you. I mean so you know. Also, do the lights work in your store? Is the? Is it clean? Like there are things you have to take care of? But, um, if you price it map and you carry solid products and you're honest with your people and you tell them why you do what you do, I don't think it's that hard.

Tina Smith: 55:16

But again, I have been a little blessed for the retailers I work at, but yeah, Well, also, I mean, I think, Chase, you undervalue a little bit of things that come really easily to you, and so when other people start looking at the different things that they need to do pricing strategy, how to communicate, what makes them different, even if they're great, you know, showing up in their community and partnering with practitioners, like all these things there's a lot of that that comes super easy to you. I think it's simple tactics that you're talking about.

Chase Ballard: 56:01

But it's still work.

Tina Smith: 56:03

Yeah, it's still work and it's still like identifying the right levers and things.

Chase Ballard: 56:11

And so just because it's not hard, it doesn't mean it's easy.

Tina Smith: 56:14

Right, yeah, that's a good point, and I just, if you're listening to this and you're like Chase says, this is easy and it's not there are pieces of it that you sometimes, um, you're in it, right, and you can't see all the pieces that I do think come a little bit more naturally to you, chase.

Tina Smith: 56:34

And so having someone from the outside, even if it's a friend, even if you're calling Micah or Chase, and just being like hey, what do you think I've got the struggle that I'm dealing with Sometimes, having someone from the outside just sort of take a look and go hold on a second here, here are some simple things, cause you're just in the day to day getting that done, so I, and that's what.

Amanda Ballard: 56:55

I love about this industry too is like that's how you guys met Micah and Chase so many years ago. We hadn't even met in person until like a year and a half ago, which just blows my mind but it was like let me call Chase and talk to him about this thing, because I'm not alone. Love about this industry between you know SEMPA, positively Natural, maho, these different organizations, like there are so many people like Chase, like Micah, that are willing to just hop on the phone, answer an email, like send a text, and just be there to support each other, because you're not each other's competition and you probably wouldn't even view other people in your community as your competition Because you know Tina says this all the time you know a rising tide raises all ships and when our industry thrives it's a benefit to everybody.

Micah Corrigan: 57:52

Yeah absolutely, some people are so focused on like their closer competition, on like their close, closer competition and, um, you know, I I had a, a friend, come up to our stores and sell us his products and, um, what did he say? He was like you know, we're, you know we're both retailers. And you know, I told him I'm like dude, you're not, you're not my competition. And I was so happy to support, um, another retailer's products, put them on end cap. I was so happy to support, like, another independent owner and, um, you know, and it's also, you know, local from Wisconsin, um, but I was just so happy to do that. And then, you know, I heard this other retailer, they're coming out with their products and other retailers coming out with a product. Like, I mean, I think these retailers are also kind of just tired of seeing what's been going on the last decade. It's not the most difficult to get, you know, good materials. It's not like you know 1848 and you had to be a Rockefellerfeller, you know, to get your hands on good raw materials.

Micah Corrigan: 59:01

Um, so I think we are starting to see like a landscape shift of you know, I think the brands, the products you see in the shelves today will be totally different in in five years. Um, you know, it's just it's I. I think a lot of um, new brands are coming out. It's just it's I. I think a lot of um, new brands are coming out. It's very exciting and I think stores can totally there just needs to be like a change and, um, and I think, brand, I think stores have to also have to like, you know, take that to heart because, okay, kind of off topic, but, um, if it's just about money, like, if it's just about money, this is what I always joke with you know our staff about. But if it's just about money, like if it's just about money and this is what I always joke with you know our staff about but if it's just about money and it's selling and it's just about money, why don't we just sell cigarettes? I mean, it's a good seller, right. So, like that's kind of going back to what Chase is is like, have a backbone, you know, carry the products that you believe in. You know, make sure that you have, like the map and the high quality products, but you don't have to carry everything.

Micah Corrigan: 1:00:05

Retailers are confined into whatever, like a 3,000, 6,000, 10,000, 20,000 square foot space. You can't carry everything. You're not going to win that game. Amazon carries everything from A to Z. The internet carries every single product under the sun. You don't have infinite space. You're never going to win the battle of variety. So you know what is it? Jeff Bezos, I think, said this it's like people always want, you know, fast shipping, cheap prices and the large variety. Right, you're never going to compete on the variety. That's never going to happen. And then for shipping, I understand shipping is complicated.

Micah Corrigan: 1:00:48

If you're a health food store in one area, I would focus on that community. I would win that community. I would be the best retailer in that community. I wouldn't worry about three states over and trying to get the best USPS shipping rates and start selling to those people. Win the community. Be the expert in your community. Focus on that. And then cheap prices.

Micah Corrigan: 1:01:08

Don't carry the products that you know are constantly undercutting you. You know. Don't do that. You know, carry I would. We sell everything at MAP and then from there we discount further using our rewards program. We sell everything at map and then from there we discount further using our rewards program. But you know some stores when they sell things at like full MSRP retail. I mean that just also makes me look bad. I'm like, hey man, you're creating the wrong impression for stores. Like, can you not do that? Like bring it down to that fair level, and then you know, after you're carrying things at map, then you know you can negotiate margins with the brand, but you have to be at a competitive right and also brands are happy to do that.

Micah Corrigan: 1:01:47

I think brands. If you're, if you're selling it always at a very competitive price, they're very happy to do deals with you. What they don't want is for you to like pad and make a 70, 80% margin, yeah, and, like you know, just keep selling it at full retail. Oh, it's not selling, I don't know. Well, have you tried, you know, having it at a more reasonable price, or more affordable price or competitive price?

Chase Ballard: 1:02:13

Um, yeah, people, people used to say, or people think that I get these amazing discounts and I mean I'm sure I get some decent discounts, but I've gotten a reputation. I mean I'm sure you have as well, mike, but I have a reputation and I get good discounts because, a I ask and then B the brands. Trust me to know that I'm going to pass it on when we promote stuff, we don't make a lot of money on the promotion. We actually don't. Yeah, when we promote stuff is when we make the least amount of money on that brand. But the idea is we are building loyalty and we're building a repeat customer to come back and get it when it's at, when it's at map, because we make decent margin when it's at map. So I mean, but people I like that and that's that promotion cycle.

Micah Corrigan: 1:02:55

I mean, you know that's and that's, I think, what stores have to do Like there's Tina, you kind of like mentioned this matrix too. There's four games in this industry. There's the EDLP game, there's the volume game, there's the line drive game and then there's the random discounts game and I hate those the most. But the golden goose of for retailers is going to be this EDLP margin and a lot of brands can't afford that. But edlp margin and a lot of brands can't afford that. Um, but that would be kind of like the golden goose is like a really good everyday discount and, you know, not a huge like minimum order shipping, uh. The second uh game is volume. You know, if you can work it out with your brand, hey, I'm gonna order this bulk and I can get it at this, this discount. I think that is like the best way to go.

Micah Corrigan: 1:03:41

Line drives are the third game. It's very sometimes confusing because typically there's like four line drives a year, three line drives a year, and stores will order it on promotion, but then if they're out of stock in, let's just say, february, and they place another reorder and it's at wholesale. Well, there are a lot of them are just going to wait for three weeks till Expo West comes around, when they can order it on promo. So the line drives, they're fine. But it kind of creates this like habit of ordering. Like reorders are dependent on a Gregorian calendar month, whereas if you do the volume, you know that you can order it seven days a week, four weeks a month, 12 months a year. You just have to get to that volume and volume ordering is dependent on item movement. So you, yeah, buy it, put it on promotion, try to create that demand, sell it, and then you know you can buy it again at that discount and then you can keep doing that and you don't always have to that discount and then you can keep doing that and you don't always have to promote it. You can stop the promotion for a month or two months and then kind of reap that margin and kind of get that back.

Micah Corrigan: 1:04:49

But volume and EDLP is the best way and the random discounts I don't really like that. Just because I call this one company, I was like, well, when is your ashwagandha gonna be on sale next? And like, well, when is your ashwagandha going to be on sale next? And they're like I don't know. And as a retailer, as a buyer, I am trying to allocate funds. Typically I do it for a year and I don't know how much money to set aside. You know, I don't, I don't quite know Am I going to like sell it out and then I'm going to be making a 20% margin for the rest of the year, until I'm not quite sure about that. So those are my least favorite. But yeah, volume and and EDLPs, um line drives are great, but you know, I think it kind of creates bad habits.

Tina Smith: 1:05:29

Yeah, man, I wish that we could. Just I know there's another good hour in this conversation that we could have. Um, I mean, Amanda, what do you think?

Amanda Ballard: 1:05:46

Oh, yeah, well, I mean, we can always just schedule part two Because we could. We can talk all day, which I love, but yeah, we want to make sure that our, our listeners can can hang with us. So let's definitely have you guys on again if you're willing, because you guys are just full of knowledge and wisdom. And I don't know about you, tina, but, like I, I have a lot of hope for industry listening to these guys because of how passionate they are and how well they run their businesses. So I'd love to just continue to pass along your words of wisdom to our listeners because I know that they'll really benefit from it. But thank you so much for being with us here today.

Tina Smith: 1:06:24

Yeah, so excited to have you guys. I mean, I think there were so many nuggets that we could double click on on another date, so I'd love to have you guys on again because it's just such practical information, from pricing to replacement to hey, this is a whole marketing strategy that we could talk about. But loved all the information and would love to have you back and just really appreciate you both.

Micah Corrigan: 1:06:51

Yeah.

Chase Ballard: 1:06:51

Yeah, thanks for having us on it was fun.

Micah Corrigan: 1:06:56

Chase and I are the same person.

Amanda Ballard: 1:07:01

Thanks so much for listening to the natural products marketer podcast. We hope you found this episode to be super helpful. Make sure you check out the show notes for any of those valuable resources that we mentioned on today's episode.

Tina Smith: 1:07:12

And, before you go, we would love for you to give us a review. Follow, like and subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you're listening today, and make sure you join us for our next episode, where we give you more marketing tips so that you can reach more people and change more lives.