Deleo de Leonardis: 0:00

Well, what's really interesting actually for a smaller retailer, so I'll I'll when I speak to the bigger retailers and we talk about doing authenticity testing, they're always talking about, you know, s you know, making the manufacturer pay for the testing. So they pass that cost on to the supplier. The small retailer, again, in lack of leverage, probably wouldn't be able to do that. But that's actually not a bad thing.

Tina Maddock: 0:24

Welcome to the Natural Products Marketer Podcast. I'm your host, Tina Matdock. On this podcast, you'll hear from manufacturers, retail owners and operators, and other business experts that will help you grow your business so you can serve more people and change more lives. I'm so excited to chat with you today, Delio. And we just recorded our podcast with Brian Hall from The Grace. And he mentioned you on the podcast. And so for the listeners, they will have already heard his.

Deleo de Leonardis: 3:32

So, you know, in the pharmacy world, I was with at one point, you know, the largest super grocery chain pharmacy chain in Canada. And then the supermarket uh 20 years was with uh SOVE's, the second largest uh chain in Canada. So I came from a world where we had a lot of leverage, you know, conversations. You you you held you know the big end of the stick when you were talking to suppliers and manufacturers, and you know what I what I heard, and wasn't surprising, of course, um, really is the ability for the smaller guys to be able to compete effectively against the bigger chains, you know, and that's that's what I heard uh pretty pretty regularly. And and they saw private label as an opportunity for them uh to be able to uh first of all compete uh on price. So typically private label is is a cheaper retail than the brand name, and it's a better margin play, so that was also of importance to them. And it's also a loyalty play. If you've got a brand that people can't get anywhere else then and they like it, then they will be shopping exclusively at your store for that brand. But the problem that they had, that they were saying, and again, I I know there were some bid-sized chains there with you know several stores, but I was really I ended up talking only to the to the small uh one or two store, maybe three uh store uh retailers. And they really are dependent on the supplier to get things right, you know, because once the product carries their private label name, I think they realize any issue becomes their issue. You know, if if there's a problem with a brand name and a recall, you're not under the microscope. You're carrying the product, it's it's a manufacturer's uh issue and they have to deal with it. But when it's your brand, all of that changes. Um, and they spoke about the fact that you know what what is tough for them is they're limited in their suppliers that they can talk to. Um you know, while I was talking about leverage, the big brands have, you know, the big retailers have leverage, but the smaller ones really um because of their volume, they're really limited to who they can do business with. And so there's cost pressure. You may not get a great private label, you know, cost and that great retail you're looking for, and there's limited visibility to what's actually in the product that you're buying, right? So I would talk to them about authenticity testing, and we'll talk a little bit about I you know explain what my company does, but to be able to have objective proof that what you're putting on your shelf is genuine and consistently genuine, and not just compliant on paper, you know, and you know documents can be easily falsified, but to be able to say that you know with scientific proof that it's that it is authentic and and that it's relatively inexpensive. So the cost of testing is inexpensive, but really importantly, you don't need a massive QA department here to do this. You just need to find a solid private legal partner with a proactive mindset. Really, that was kind of where I was talking about. So I was talking to them both from uh a peering IQ perspective and also as a former retailer. I think they were listening to me a bit more than they might typically think that this was just a sales pitch, you know, from from a company who's at the show, right? So that was that was what I was hearing pretty consistently.

Tina Maddock: 7:00

Yeah, and you know, we talk about white label a lot because it is such a great way to maintain some margin, give your customers a different price point, and um really make it sticky. All the things that you just said, they they can't find this product anywhere else. So you're you're more competitive than anything else. Um and they come back to you over and over again for that product because they just can't find it anywhere else. What you need for that is a really good brand already in the store for people already trusting you, that you're the person that knows the best sourcing. Um, you're bringing them purity of product already. So some of that is um from a marketing and messaging perspective, getting in there and creating that level of value for your customer means that whenever they see your brand versus someone else, they have high trust in what the in the label just because it has your name on it now. Everything you're bringing up is super important because that also means you have liability, you um erosion of trust is so fast, like you can spend spend years and years and years and years building it up. But if there's a problem with the product or something comes out about the product, that erosion of trust can happen overnight, and immediately you're gonna spend years rep in repairing that. And so talking if you can. Yeah, absolutely. Because you might not be able to, especially because most of these stores are community-based, and that community turnover doesn't happen very quickly. So um, so you're absolutely right. And um, I don't know. Do you know the book How Not to Die?

Deleo de Leonardis: 8:52

No, I've never heard of it.

Tina Maddock: 8:53

Okay, there is um a doctor who writes um the book, How Not to Die, and more recently he's come out with How Not to Age. And what's interesting about that is uh I love reading his books because he has a lot of scientific data to back up all the different claims he's making, or to say this is why I use turmeric and this is what why you pair it with curcumin and capstaysin. So he has a lot of studies, lots of footnotes, very thick books. Um, at the beginning of How Not to Age, he specifically talks about when you go to buy a supplement at a grocery store, there's he's got a percentage of how many of them actually have what it says on the label that they have. And he also talks about heavy metals and toxins in there. And so I do think, especially there are many people that are coming to your store that are well versed in some of these academic papers or or books or people are making TikToks off of this book. And so talk to us a little bit about what you see about what's on the label versus what's in the jar.

Deleo de Leonardis: 10:09

Well, and that's kind of our if you go to our website, that's the first thing that comes up on the landing page is we verify that what's on the label is actually in the product. Nothing more, nothing less. So, you know, this is on mantra, and this is what really why we created the company. Um, and again, I I I've mentioned my background is all retail and not a scientist. I don't have a scientific bone in my body. And I didn't mention that for, so I was in senior positions when I was at the supermarket chain. Uh, amongst them, I was VP of Private Label for many years. So not only did I, you know, have an opportunity to talk to them as a former retailer, but with knowledge of private label. And even so, we'll talk about white label in a second. You know, there's pros and cons to white label, uh, but some of the issues are the same, whether it's private label or white label, or a brand on the shelf, forget your own label. A lot of people are misinformed uh because they think that the regulatory requirement uh to test products takes care of all of these issues. And there are, you know, minimum tests you have to do to be compliant, again, to make sure the product's safe for consumption. So, you know, heavy metal, as you mentioned, pesticides, microbial testing, pathogens, etc. And also identity testing. So an identity test, both in the US and Canada and Europe, you have to do an identity test. What a lot of people don't realize is an identity test will just tell you that the product or the ingredient you're expecting to find in the product is there. It won't necessarily tell you if anything else is in there. That's the big, you know, aha moment when we're talking to people because they assume they're checking off all the boxes. And I'm talking about retailers, the brand owners, I'm talking about manufacturers, you know, often they're dependent on others for their input material, unless you're perfectly integrated. You've got ingredient suppliers you're buying RS from, and people are only asking for a certificate of analysis that proves identity. So is there F and H value in this bottle of amnesia? And they say, Yep, yeah, perfect, done. Is there anything else in there that shouldn't be there? And that's where purity testing comes in. You know, that's why we picked the name Purity IQ, because we wanted to differentiate ourselves and say it's not just an identity test, and that's all that the regulatory requirements are. So this whole notion of product adulteration, food fraud, and again it's supplements and it's not food fraud, but it's fraud. It's all economically motivated. No one's actually trying to kill you. This is not terrorism, but it is trying to make a buck. And there are a lot of people out there trying to make a buck, and it's existed since the dawn of time. I think the first documented cases are ancient uh Italy or ancient Rome and ancient Greece. So, I mean, those are first documented cases. God only knows how far back it really goes. So it's it's a real concern and it continues today, and it's not going away anytime soon. So you need to be asking about authenticity testing, not just identity testing. That I think is the big issue that people don't really realize.

Tina Maddock: 13:18

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 13:19

Yeah, go ahead. So I was about to go into white labeling, but but go ahead.

Tina Maddock: 13:22

Yeah, we I want to get there for sure, but I I just want to go back because we talked at the beginning of this, that there is a much higher margin for the store. And that's part of why they do private label white label programs. And because there's a higher margin and there are higher stakes involved, I think there's room for people to invest in testing or to require from a manufacturer or supplier that there's testing. I think there's room for that, especially in a private label white label product.

Deleo de Leonardis: 13:59

It's not that there is room. There has to be room. Yeah. That's that's that's the kicker. Again, people will say, Well, I received the documentation, I've got the certificate of analysis. And again, you know, it's only as good as the paper it's written on. These things can be manipulated, they can be forged, and you're saying that's all I need, or just verbally, yep, yep, yep, it's passed all the tests. And and the smaller retailers, because they don't have leverage, say we can't, you know, force somebody. We're already limited in the choice of suppliers we can go to for private label, and we'll talk about the white label opportunity in a second. And now I'm gonna say you need to show, you know, yeah, you need a I'm I'm gonna ask you to do an audit, I need to see you know, this type of testing you're not doing today. You know, they're just gonna go to West Felipe, right? They're gonna walk away. And maybe that's a good thing, right? If they walk away, but uh white labeling is is a great uh opportunity and it's a great um choice, I think, for some retailers to make versus private labeling, because it's kind of an easy and affordable way for the small retailer to offer their own products without having to invest in like product development or or anything else, uh, because the product, as you know, already exists. It's generic, it's pre-made, it's sold to to many other retailers potentially under different brand names. Uh or it could be the same brand name, but it would be you know unique to your geography. So they make it so that it is you know private label like product, and then you know either add your logo or whatever name that you've chosen or they've chosen, and you go to market. And that's you know, yeah, it's easy.

Tina Maddock: 15:42

Let's talk a little bit about. I know you're identifying some of the differences, but the big difference between private label and white label.

Deleo de Leonardis: 15:51

Well, it is the the fact that private label is your brand. So you have uh developed the product, the spec, the standard, your brand standard. You are actually providing like a recipe to the manufacturer, or you work with the manufacturer to develop the recipe, the formulation, whatever it is. It is absolutely yours. And so all of the risk is yours, and the cost is yours because it's more expensive to do private label than it is to do white label. Again, a white label because it's it is it exists already, the manufacturer makes this, they offer it to many different customers uh under different names. It's you know, it's one formulation and it's easier when you're asking them to start to bring in you know new ingredients, different ingredients, maybe a different uh you know, lid than they're using for everybody else. Yeah, you want, you know, just something to make it unique, that you know, costs money. So the advantage for white labeling for for a small retailer is the speed and cost, right? It's it's fast, it's simple, it's it's low risk apparently, but we'll get to that in a second. But the trade-off is control and differentiation, because uh the same product being on multiple shelves of the different brands, you don't always know where it came from or how consistent the quality is, or whether it would have met your brand standards if you had developed brand standards, because they know no exclusivity equals no control, really at the end of the day, right? So if the underlying formulation changes at any point or varies between batches, you know, the retailer wouldn't even be aware of it until a problem arises.

Tina Maddock: 17:36

Yeah, and I'm gonna say that most of the smaller retailers are going white label versus private label.

Deleo de Leonardis: 17:42

Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense, right? It's it's a big investment to go private label. And like I said at the beginning, your options are really limited, you know, to find there's I know it very, very well, a retailer here in Canada with 26 stores, and they have trouble finding private label manufacturers. So imagine, you know, if you've got one or two stores.

Tina Maddock: 18:02

Yeah, and I'm gonna say that there's reduced risk, like on paper, probably, right? With going white label, but there's still risk of that erosion of trust, going white label, that you have to be able to trust the manufacturer there. So talk to us a little bit about how testing, third-party testing products, even a white label, can be such a differentiator.

Deleo de Leonardis: 18:27

Well, what's really interesting actually for a smaller retailer. So I'll when I speak to the bigger retailers and we talk about doing authenticity testing, they're always talking about, you know, you know, making the manufacturer pay for the testing. So they pass that cost on to the supplier. The small retailer, again, in lack of leverage, probably wouldn't be able to do that. But that's actually not a bad thing because I was saying at the beginning, you know, the cost is relatively inexpensive to test a product. And if you're doing it before you even launch the product, which was the topic of my of my uh talk at uh at the Soho Whites Bowl, was doing it at the procurement stage, not necessarily the way everybody does it today, is you know, when the product's already in supply chain, it's already on shelf, and now you're you've if you find something, it's a problem, and you're doing recalls and it's crisis management. If you're doing it at the beginning, so if you're uh interviewing, you know, you're you're taking some uh bids maybe from different uh white label manufacturers to do a product for you, because there's if it's white label, you can ask several different uh suppliers, uh again, because you're not asking for something unique to you. If you're not gonna ask them to pay for the testing and you test it yourself, you have an advantage over the retailers who are asking the supplier to do the testing, to send samples to durity out here, for example. Because, you know, if they know you're gonna be testing the product, chances are they're gonna send a pristine sample, or they're really, you know, not bright. So, you know, then then you know you've got, okay, well, I've got this sample is good, and maybe you know, the first few batches that I get or the first few orders that I put in are gonna be good, but you start to wonder whether or not that, you know, over time, you know, that quality starts to slip and they start to dilute or or whatever to make up, you know, whatever's the costs. But if you are testing it yourself without telling them, you can find things that right away and make a decision right away. Again, for a minimal cost, you know I can trust this supplier. At least today they're doing all the right things. You would want to do random testing through a, you know, you never know. People change in companies, pressures change in companies, they decide that they want to, you know, substitute something, dilute something, and and this happens very, very frequently. You know, once once they've been able to, not everybody, but once they've secured the business, then it's easy to just say, you know, just you know, claw back some of that cost that I gave them to secure the business up front. Um, but that is you know one of the things that's a plus for a small retailer. If you pay for your own testing, they have no idea. So you're going to really be able to see what they're sending you right from the beginning. Are these people that I should be like putting a big X through because they're cutting corners and lying to me?

Tina Maddock: 21:22

Yeah, well, and and think about it this way you don't have to have a white label product to do this.

Deleo de Leonardis: 21:29

This could be anything. Oh, yeah, anything, absolutely. I mean, yeah, we we're talking to people about everything uh all the time, right? It's it is scary, as I mentioned, because even the big brands out there that aren't retailers, the big brands are dependent on others. And you know, one of the things I spoke about is you know, this has existed forever and it will continue to exist forever, this this you know economically motivated food fraud, because the supply chain, you know, there's still supply chain issues. We knew we became very conscious of supply chain issues during COVID when everything was hard to get. But that's that's constant. You know, maybe it's it exacerbated the situation, but you know, there will always be issues, unfortunately, whether it's geopolitical, like I don't think we're ever going to be in a world without war, without conflict, uh, and and it's hard to get ingredients from countries where things like that are happening for climate change, you know, whether you believe it exists or not. There are droughts and then there are you know flooding and a lot more, you know, effects on crops. People can't get things where they used to get them. So they're being forced to go to use the climate that they've never gone to before. And it is, you're untested, untried, and you're you're you know crossing your fingers and hoping, well, don't cross your bankers. That's scientific proof. Because everything else, audits are audits about the facility. Good manufacturing practices are making sure that the facility is in good shape, it's not testing the product, right? And then you go, well, I'm doing an identity test. Well, yeah, an identity test won't necessarily tell you what else is in the product, it's not a purity test. So these are the things that it's it's it's getting people to to realize that you need to do more than what you think you need to do, you know, from a regulatory compliance point of view, and even just peace of mind.

Tina Maddock: 23:27

Yeah, and this is a great point about people are always asking, how do I evaluate a product or a manufacturer before or a brand before I bring them into my school? How do I make sure? Um, what are what's the checklist that I should be going down? I love for um manufacturers or brands to provide, hey, we do third-party testing, here's what it looks like, here's our regular routine around it. But if if you really want to go that extra mile to ensure that you are giving your customers what they expect that they're getting, this is a perfect opportunity to just test that brand before it comes in your store.

Deleo de Leonardis: 24:11

And you know, you know, people are doing it more and more because as they're starting to realize, and you know what, and I think the small, the small companies want to prove it even more. You know, I think that the big retailers talk about trust uh all the time, but um small retailers can actually prove it. It's not just you know, it's not just words. Um and again, when you verify that you know what's in your product or what's on the label is actually your product, you're actually saying to your customers, we know exactly what's in this, that we know what we're selling, and we've got the data, the scientific data to back it up. And I think that's you know, that builds confidence uh in your in your client's now if they know that. And if you use certification, so you know, I know Brian, uh True Race, was on your podcast uh recently, and they used our certification, our uh certified authentic uh certification mark on their probiotics. And it is they want to shout us on the rooftops that they go over and above what they need to be doing from a regulatory perspective to make sure that you know their probiotics are what they stay there.

Tina Maddock: 25:21

Yeah, and so I've seen some really great um brands invest up front. And we've even had a conversation on this podcast where it's like, hey, we source ingredients just like you were talking about, and it comes with a certification, a certificate of authenticity right in the door. And their motto is trust but verify. We love that we have this certificate of authenticity, but then we put it through our lab first to make sure that what we're putting in the product ends up being what we want to be in the product. So they have an extra layer of trust but verify. And I think if if you find brands who are willing to invest like that, and you also are are having a stake in that as well because you're representing to customers every day. And this is where I think some of the bigger chains sort of get off base because they are not the people who are making the decisions and have the purse strings, are not the people who are talking to the coach of the Little League team down the street. You know, you guys are the independent retailers, have relationships in that community and they have to look customers face face to face and say, I promise that what we're offering to you passes all of the tests and is actually what's in the bottle that and we're making recommendations to you so you can trust us. It's you know, that that old saying around what's in a name. And if you lose your name, you can lose everything.

Deleo de Leonardis: 27:03

So it is reputational risk. You said it, I mean, it's big. Yeah. The reputational risk is something you cannot afford, you know, to take. You can't it's you said it can take years to build up that brand, and then it takes minutes, seconds, you know, for that to just dissolve. And it may not come back, you just never know. Um, and I think that what you're describing can be part of a brand story. You know, it's not just compliance anymore, it becomes a brand story that sets you apart. And exactly what you were saying. You're able to tell your clients, your customers, that you know, you go that extra distance is that you take quality, you know, seriously, but personally. That's what I think you know differentiates you from, you know, just big conglomerates.

Tina Maddock: 27:55

Well, also, it's just such a differentiator in the market because you can go on Amazon and buy just about anything. There's a couple of reasons that people still come to independent retailers. First is because um there's a consultation that happens generally where they're like, I've got this and I've heard about this thing, but I don't know. And they're asking you questions around is this the right choice? Um am I looking at everything? And you're helping people through that. They're not getting that on Amazon right now. The other piece is Amazon will let anyone sell anything on their platform. And you can really differentiate yourself by talking about we only bring trusted people who have the right the ingredients that are on the label in there. We're not offering you items with heavy metals. Like saying that out loud is a huge differentiation for whether or not people trust and come to you over and over again versus whatever competitor. It might be down the street, it might be online, but they don't have to wonder because here you go, here are all the certifications, here's the testing that gets done. And that imbues trust.

Deleo de Leonardis: 29:12

Hugely, hugely. Because, you know, I think I don't think people are getting wary now. There's enough media attention around, you know, what is what has happened on Amazon, what's been found, whatever. But they're getting they're getting wiser too, right? They're starting to get into testing in certain areas, but it's still not 100%. Um, but it is a chance for the smaller retailers, like you said, they've already they've already got a relationship built with with uh their customers, again, because they're providing counsel and they're there for advice. And uh and they're carrying brands that a lot of the big chains don't carry, right? Because they are going to the ones that you know they're doing some homework on and they like the story and the brand story. But again, you've got to, you know, buyer beware. It it really is. It can be a great facade that the story sounds great and they're saying all the right things. You just don't know what's happening behind the scenes. And I've I've had, you know, we do, I know we're talking to supplements, but you know, we also do food and beverage, too. I've had I've had some clients tell me that like an old boy or whatever. They they really lean on, oh, we've had this relationship with this, you know, with the manufacturer for years and years, and you know, they're they went to each other's children's weddings, and oh, you know, what all this that's lovely, you know, that's a lovely story. Yeah, but you don't know what's happening down the line. You might be, you know, CEO, the CEO, they're all doing the weddings or whatever, but down, you know, there's pressure to deliver results, there's pressure to deliver margins, there's pressure, you don't know what decisions are being made. But the C me the CEO may not even be aware, you know, that it's just or they're just smiling and saying everything's great. Because that's just it's reality, you know. Unfortunately, I wish everyone took the higher road and didn't do this, but then we wouldn't have any reason to exist.

Tina Maddock: 31:03

Well, here's the other part of that that we've seen several times, and people are gonna think of brands as soon as I talk about this, but the different formulations, and sometimes, you know, when when brands go mass market, they will change their formulation and it says it on the label. But think about when when businesses are acquired, there's a new mandate. They don't always stick to the values. When there's an acquisition, the acquisition has to pay off in the end. And maybe it's because the brand is amazing and they can build on that story that's been there and they stick to the values. I wish that's how it always happened. But many times it's like, great, you have become a trusted brand in the market. How can we cut costs? And what do we now eliminate? And sometimes that's on the label and sometimes it's not. And so I think again, buyer beware when there are things that are starting to change structurally in a company, that this is an opportunity for people to say, hey, maybe we should have some testing on this product to make sure that it's still the same that we've always offered to people. And again, this is a story to tell your customers because every time that you make an investment like this, you are proving to your customers again that you are the one that can be trusted. There they don't have to stay loyal to a brand. You're the gatekeeper that is helping them not have to worry about this or think about it. So that should be communicated every time you've got something going on. And sometimes it's like, hey, great news. It's still the same formula.

Deleo de Leonardis: 32:43

Happy to say, no change. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And it is one of the slides in my presentation was, you know, some of the red flags to look for, you know, and you've you've said a few, like if the company's recently been acquired or whatever. But you know, there are things and they're common sense, you know, if there's spidey senses going on for some reason, then that's probably a reason for you to to do your own testing. And again, like I said, it's it's not it's it's not uh uh an expensive thing to do at all, and it's peace of mind. And you know, if if the if you ask the supplier to to do some testing other than what they're already doing, and they refuse, that's a red flag. Yeah. That to me is again, what do you what do you have to hide? Well, why don't you do it?

Tina Maddock: 33:32

Maybe they're already doing it and you didn't know about it, and then they can just show you the results. So sometimes that's the case, but the more that retailers are asking, and I always think about this. I know that smaller retailers feel like I don't really have buyer power or influence power or whatever, but the more that the community starts to talk about these things, ask these questions, raise their hands, the more power that and influence that the retailers have because they're binding together and talking about things that are important to everyone.

Deleo de Leonardis: 34:06

No, you're you're bang wrong. There is unfortunately a subset of the population uh on the manufacturing side or ingredients acquired side who are doing um who are doing bad things, and um they don't care. They're doing it for for all the reasons that we've talked about already. And but the minute there's a groundswell of demand for this information, then they will have to do the right things. But there are some of them today, and we're very fortunate. We we're first of all, we're as an organization, we're not militant, we're not out looking for problems, we're not taking products off shelves and doing exposes or whatever. We want to work with people who want to do the right things. And so those are the proactive companies that are saying we want to be able to be assured ourselves and assure our clients or the consumer if it's it's being uh product, that we have done everything and that we can, you know, give you that confidence and trust in our product. Others will be brought there picking and screaming probably, unfortunately, but it'll take consumers demanding you know, what is this product really authentic? Is there anything else in here? Because one thing that I think scares consumers a lot now is that we're all really proud of ourselves for reading labels now. We didn't used to read labels like 10 years ago, you you barely go into maybe calories and fat, you know, like that was all that we really cared about. Now people are really scrutinizing and studying, and if it's an ingredient that this wrong, oh my god, what's in it? And yeah, unpronounceable things.

Speaker 3: 35:49

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 35:50

So we're we think we're making informed choices. If you still want to buy the thing that's not good for you, well, you're doing it eyes wide open. But what if the label is wrong? You've lost control.

Tina Maddock: 36:02

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 36:02

This is what's scaring consumers because up until now they thought they were doing the right thing. I'm going to be an informed consumer and make a decision based on what I see here because I'm going to be weak.

unknown: 36:12

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 36:12

I'm going to be informed. And now, if there's something on there, you know, something in the product that's not on that label, you don't know.

Tina Maddock: 36:20

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 36:20

This is the scary thing we're in today. We've lost control. So there's going to be uh, I know, a movement for authenticity. And authenticity, the word is, you know, authentic self, and it was the very mortx word of the year in 2023. But when it comes to supplements and food and beverage, authenticity is permanent. You know, you can't play with that. You need to make sure that there's nothing else in that product. Because even if it's not meant to kill you, it's just in there to, you know, dilute and you know, it's a filler. Anything that's not declared on the label could be a food safety hazard for someone. It might be an allergen for someone.

Tina Maddock: 37:02

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 37:02

If it's not declared on the label, that could be a problem for you.

Tina Maddock: 37:07

Yeah, and as more and more people become aware of that, and the consumers will hold the retailers accountable too. And then the retailers hold the manufacturers accountable, and then movement takes place where things happen. Um, but I think the retailers can get ahead of this and put a stake in the ground and talk about it whenever they're doing this. Um, because I think consumers would appreciate realizing that someone's looking out for their best interest. And the more that you talk about we do this, bottom line, we do this, we don't put things on our shelves that don't have what's in the label and or that have other things that are not on the label in the jar, then um, the more consumers trust that they come to you to figure out, okay, what brands do I trust? What which product does have the amount of um the ingredient that I'm looking for in the actual jar? And so they come to your store, they trust you, they buy from you, or they trust what's on your shelves. And so I think the more that they do that, um, just the better outcome for them in their community. But take us back because you said something that I thought was interesting, were red flags. And of course, we mentioned like there's a change of leadership or a company gets acquired. What are the other red flags that you see where you're you might be like, hmm, interesting?

Deleo de Leonardis: 38:41

Um, you know what? It would be um where there's a shortage of product if you know that you're reading about you know, there's uh problems getting in radius, like when when the war broke out, unfortunately still going on with Russia and Ukraine, there was a shortage of sunflower and sunflower oil. So when you hear those things and someone's coming to you with a really great price on sunflower oil, you know, this is really um so and I'll give you another example. I think uh during COVID, there was a rush on elderberry. You know, is reported to be good for the immune system. There was more apparently this is a fact going here, but apparently more elderberry sold during COVID than there was raw material available in the world. So things that make you go, hmm, isn't usually a red flag, you know. So like I said, if someone is is unwilling to test a product, you know, really adamantly unwilling, saying, nope, I will not really maybe they're just being idiotic and we have nothing to hide, but that's just you know, there's a if you don't have the proof, you don't have the proof. If there are just, you know, you know there's supply chain woes in some area, shortages in something. You need to be maybe just a little bit more uh vigilant to make sure that that product, because not not everything is is right for adult creation, you know. It's an opportunistic crime, right? And so the fraudsters, the minute there's a shortage of something, that's where they leap in and they, you know, they will be able to hear about, and again, I keep talking about olive oil, but you keep hearing about you know truckloads of olive oil being stolen, and so that stuff is you know being diluted, it's being resold and relabeled. So you just you need to be aware. If you hear things like that, these are you know, you've got to ask your suppliers to to provide the proof that they're phone out one of, you know, and like I say, if you see your Spidey stands, I can't remember whose audience that was like making 10, 10, 12 things on my right flag that's and it wasn't an exhaustive list, you know, if there was somebody in the audience that wrote about this, but yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good one, right? But you know when something's changed off. And and the and I think you know, if if your listeners are going, oh my god, I can't start testing everything in the store, it's really more you said it yourself, you're choosing what to bring in. There's stories you're listening to, brand stories from some of these manufacturers and suppliers of products that you say, yeah, I that aligns with my values, that aligns with what I believe my my customers are looking for. I bring their products in. You'll ask them, you know, did you do all of your testing showing your sleeping, whatever? And but you don't know at the end of the day, like if they've really gone through everything. The more important thing to be testing is anything that is expensive to you.

Speaker 2: 41:29

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 41:30

Because you can't be testing everything in the store. It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And the responsibility is the responsibility of the manufacturer and the brand owner, but you are the brand owner, even of a white label.

unknown: 41:45

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 41:45

In the eyes of the consumer, that's your brand. Absolutely. Even if it's you know a stock treatment formula that you know the manufacturer given to others and other stores with different brands, you're promoting it as your brand. So you've got to stand behind it. And I would say that's priority number one. I don't want people to listen to this and go, oh my overwhelming and you know, be testing everything, asking everybody for proof of this, that, and the other. You know, some of it you've got to just go with with with your gut or just trust. But if it's your brand, that needs to be priority number one.

Tina Maddock: 42:20

Yeah, there's a lot of trust in this industry that you you build relationships and partner on trust. I love asking the manufacturers though, or the brands, like what testing have you done? And then they can show you what they're up to. And many, many of them, especially in this industry that serve the independent retailers, are absolutely on top of it. They are testing the products. There are such great manufacturers and brands in this industry that are trustworthy and can provide you with what's what's going into their bottles. Um, and then there are others that you might have question marks about. And I think specifically in terms of when someone, your customer has a um is pulling you to make a decision to put something on your shelf that you haven't heard of, you haven't worked with that brand before, you ask your peers because I think this network is just amazing to be able to check other things out. If you have a peer group here that you can talk to and be like, have you heard of this product? Have you heard of this brand? What's your experience? How's that going? So word of mouth and and peers that you trust are huge for this. But but you know, I mean, more and more consumers are coming into your store with the TikTok. And they're like, Oh god, yeah, I want this thing.

Deleo de Leonardis: 43:46

Yeah. TikToks are the new Dr. Oz, you know, it's Absolutely. The latest, greatest. Yeah, seriously. But you know, again, when you were saying they they come and they'll show you the good ones will say, Here's all the testing I've done. And It can look it can look very impressive because again, a lot of the regulatory requirement is the stuff of, you know, it's it's routine quality testing. Again, you know, the heavy metal, the pesticide, the microbial, the pathogen, all of that they'll show you blah blah blah blah blah blah. They will, they should have identity tests on it. And this is where I'm saying, just ask, is that an identity test or an authenticity test? And then you'll see right away if they even know what you're talking about. They may not even know the difference. And so it just shows that you're you're aware, you're on top of things, and you know that an identity test is only telling you about the identity of the product that's in there, the ingredient that you expect. Yeah. You need to know, you need to be informed to be able to ask the right questions and not just, oh, that looked impressive. And we just rambled off a list of things. Check, check, check, check, check.

Tina Maddock: 44:51

And speaking of white label, and I know you're saying if a retailer wants to start doing testing, that's the place that you would start, is with a white label because your name's on it. And I absolutely agree with that. And I will say we have just recently talked to an essential oils company, and this is one of your red flags that came up when we were having this discussion that the amount of lavender, essential oil we are selling, outpaces the amount of actual lavender that if all of it were harvested, can be in that product. And so the question sometimes for essential oils and others are is this natural or is this synthetic? Just so that you can understand what is going in the bottles that you're putting your brand name on and asking that simple question is this man-made versus is this from nature that's being so um that's a that's a really great question. And then also that can totally be tested.

Deleo de Leonardis: 45:53

Well, and I'll give you another example: collagen. Yeah, we have been testing collagen and we have been shocked. You know, there are some brands out there with you know, very expensive. You know, people are shelling out big money on supplements to begin with. Yeah, and not only are you spending a lot of money, you're expecting some sort of benefit, right? That's the other thing. Yes, and we have tested collagen. So most people want to know if it's really marine collagen versus it's a you know plant, which is another story. But um, we're testing collagen. We have found in some of the very big, well-known brands, zero collagen. Oh no, it's all gelogen. Yikes. Yeah, yikes, big yikes. So again, this is bandwagon, collagen big. People are talking about it, it's TikTok and it's whatever, all over the place. And so suddenly you realize that you know, people are shelling out, and it's not the more expensive ones, they're the better ones, right? You can't you can't even use that as a bellwether at all, right? As a gauge. So yeah, you need to you need to buyer beware on everything. And as more and more consumers hear these things, like I was just saying, they're gonna demand that there's some sort of proof, which is why we have our certification, you know. And you know, here's a small pitch, but I'll tell you our the certification, we just came out very recently with um an interactive trust mark. So, you know, and we were challenged by one of our clients who said, How are you gonna communicate what this means? You know, certified authentic. It's not as obvious as you know, peanut-free or gluten-free or anything or just connect to a peanut everyone. Oh, okay. Well, I think we know what that means. What you think authentic means and what I, you know, our interpretations could be different. So we've created, and you know, this is the first, but we're not gonna be the last, I'm sure. Uh, it's a QR code-based certification. So when the consumer is at the shelf, they can't, and now you know thorough filter back in because you don't you just need your phone camera and you don't need an app, which is great. So it takes you immediately to a site that tells you what authenticity means and what this product had to do to become certified authentic. So it really is because there's no room on the label to be able to, you know, already we're peeling back to read other things like you know, microscopic fonts or whatever. So this is an opportunity to be able to go and see right there where you're in the store, and you're making a decision about whether or not to buy that product or that product, right? And that's why people like Brian at True Grace, like they've em, you know, embrace this because they want to be able to tell that story.

Speaker 2: 48:42

Yeah.

Deleo de Leonardis: 48:42

And and not on their own, right? Because they don't have to sit there and do a lot of marketing about it, it's right there.

Tina Maddock: 48:50

Yeah. And you know, when we're when I'm thinking about the collagen story that you just told, um because what happens is these things like come into vogue, right? And people start taking them. But the minute that it we do have a little bit of pill fatigue, I think, I think Brian Hall mentioned it on our podcast as well. But you're taking so many things because you're looking for the benefits. But after a month or two, if you're not seeing any difference, you're not gonna continue to buy. So this is as much for you, the retailer, as it is for the consumer, people are not gonna continue to buy a product that isn't working for them.

Deleo de Leonardis: 49:32

No, no, it's true. It's true. And so, I mean, there, you know, there are back to the red flags. I mean, there are red flags that um should be pretty self-evident, you know. Um one of the things that um I was talking about uh at uh at Soho was unusually low prices too, right? I think that's if it's too good to be true, there's there's a reason why it's too good to be true. But the other thing we didn't talk about, um, which is really kind of critical, especially in the supplement world, is there are so many hands-on products today. There are so many intermediaries between distributors, you know, and of course there's a manufacturer, but there's distributors, there's importers, there's brokers, there's all sorts of people that potentially can touch this. So when there are multiple, you just wonder how well they know, you know, down the supply chain what's happened. Because all of those opportunities are opportunities for somebody to do something, right? Potentially. And if there are new intermediaries being brought in, that's another time to do testing, right? So now things have changed. Uh, like you said, an acquisition could be things have changed, or not an acquisition, but they've just changed who they're using now for manufacturing. There's obviously some, you know, again, some people use co-manufacturers or co-factors or whatever, right? So yeah, these are things that again you need to just be wary of and think about it. Or a sudden, a sudden change in supplier, right? Like I've had to change my ingredients supplier because I'm having trouble finding XYZ from this country or whatever. That's okay. Let's great. I hope you're testing. If you're not, I will. Right. Right.

Tina Maddock: 51:18

Yeah. Okay, so we've probably overwhelmed everyone a little bit. I hope not. Well, this does feel a little bit scary and a little bit more than like one independent retailer can tackle. So um, but I love your advice that there is some trust that you can have in manufacturers and brands who are doing the right thing, who you can ask, and if they actually understand some of the questions that you're asking, at least they're they know about it and they're required to have that responsibility. The place to start probably is with anything that has your name on it. And I think that they can reach out to your company and say, okay, my budget is X. What can I do? What can I look at? What can I make sure of?

Deleo de Leonardis: 52:12

Yeah, absolutely. That's a good way to start.

Tina Maddock: 52:16

So, yeah, so who how do they reach you?

Deleo de Leonardis: 52:20

Best thing to do is to go right to our website. Um we just relaunched the website a few weeks ago, maybe a month ago. So we're we're very proud of it. I think we we demystified it. I think it's a bit complex. I think when you land there now, it should be painfully obvious what we do and why we do. And I think that that messaging gets through. So come to our website. It's uh www or purity hyphen. Or is that hyphen will get you? Yeah. IQ.com. Purity-iq.com.

Tina Maddock: 52:53

And we will put that in the show notes as well to keep people out of place to go.

Deleo de Leonardis: 52:58

So there's, you know, even just the landing page should be sufficient to give you a good working knowledge of what it is we do and how we do it, and and and how that can help you. And then there's a way to reach us through that. And uh, and I see as a CEO, I obviously the sales team and the technical team get pleased, but I see too the the inbound uh communication that comes in. So I think I will be able to see that as well and make sure the team's all over.

Tina Maddock: 53:24

Yeah, and there are brands that are already using purity IQ. So definitely look for the label of certification there. Um, and then reach out to the Purity IQ team, especially if you have a white label product in your store, even if you're smaller, there are small investments that you can make to really make a difference and then talk about it constantly in your marketing. We do this on behalf of our consumers because we care that what we're providing is what you're actually putting in your body.

Deleo de Leonardis: 53:57

Super important.

Tina Maddock: 53:59

Yep. All right, this was a delight. I just I always love talking to you. We could probably talk for hours because there's I have a plane to catch. So we can't we're gonna honor that time today, but it's it is um so great to talk to you. You're so knowledgeable. I love that you have that retail background. It gives you such compassion for the people who are actually running these stores and um would love for people to come by, get to know you, and uh get um your services working on their behalf, whether they're a brand or a retailer who's offering white label products.

Deleo de Leonardis: 54:37

Thank you. Thank you. We're very, very passionate about what we do. The team is really pumped to be doing something to make a difference, hopefully. And uh I want to thank you for having me here and inviting me. This has been great. Love the conversation.

Tina Maddock: 54:50

Yeah, absolutely. All right, thank you all for joining us today. We appreciate that you're here. And if you've enjoyed what you heard, pass this on to a friend who needs to hear it as well. Talk to you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for joining us for the latest episode of the Natural Products Marketer Podcast, where we're here to help you grow your business so you can serve more people and change more lives. If you have any questions that have come up during this episode or others, or there's just a retail challenge that you're facing today, I would love for you to reach out to us at info at naturalproductsmarketer.com. We're here to answer questions. But most of all, if you have a question, then another retailer probably also has that question. So we can bring experts onto the podcast to give you the information that you really need. And if you liked what you heard, give us a thumbs up or give us a review on uh YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening today. All right, it was great to see you.